5/27    To the poster who suggested on using less energy or move closer,
        it is not possible in the United States. Take San Francisco for
        example. Pretty much over 90% of the people who work there live
        outside of SF, most of whom would live closer if rent and properties
        were cheaper. The fact of the matter is, most people simply can't
        afford to buy a 500 sq. ft. property in SF. In fact I know some
        people who live in Pittsburg or somewhere ridiculously far just
        so they can buy a place. It's not that people don't want to live
        closer, but that most convenient places are not affordable, unless
        you're an FOB immigrant (who usually bring in a lot of money), did
        pretty well during the dot-coms, or inherited wealth. I say that
        living closer is impossible in the US because the government does
        not plan a city, at all. Look at Scandinavian countries. City
        planners actually plan out how, where, & when to add or modify
        commercial and residential areas, which meet stringent criteria such
        as growth demand, commute time, convenience, distance from the
        National highway, etc. They are way ahead of everyone else in terms
        of city planning and housing development. In the US, no planning.
        Let private enterprizes do it all.  Fuck United States.
        \_ So go live in Scandinavia then and pay 50% of your income in
           taxes.
           \_ So you're saying op's not not allowed to criticize aspects
              of US urban planning?  If you don't like it get out?  "Fuck
              United States" isn't really constructive, but do you believe
              that there's no room for improvement or to look to a good
              example of a place that does traffic planning right?  I don't
              like a lot of aspects of Scandinavian "central planning", but
              looking at traffic in the Bay Area, it might certainly be a
              good idea to think about alternatives... -John
              \_ No John, I'm telling the OP to move to Scandinavia if he
                 doesn't like the U.S. WTF is your problem? If you're going
                 to say "Fuck the U.S." then move. Stop reading more into
                 posts than what there is and leave your preconceived
                 notions at home.
                 \_ Doesn't look like I'm the one with the problem.  Your
                    comment sure sounds like "either accept what's wrong with
                    here, or go elsewhere with all their problems."  Relax.
                 \_ The "Fuck US" op has no intention of staying in the US
                    for the sake of retirement. By the way I want to ask you
                    if you've personally LIVED and EXPERIENCED places other
                    than the US. If you haven't, perhaps you're a bit
                    quick to the tong. What I observe typically with Americans
                    is that they've only eaten certain types of food (hot dogs
                    and burgers) and are quick to judge what is good and
                    what is not, and very unreceptive to criticisms. That
                    goes the same for what they believe is good or not without
                    having extensive exposure to the things they judge.
                    And yes when the time is right I'll go back to the place
                    I love, while you're stuck with a broken country  -the op
                    \_ Just out of curiosity, where is this place that you
                       love?       -mice
        \_ This is not really true. First of all, there are only 1.5M jobs in
           SF and 750M residents, so far more than 10% of the people who work
                  \_ I think you mean 750k
                     \_ Obviously. Thanks for the correction.
           here live here. I ride the J Church to work everyday into the
           financial district and it is full of commuters. And you can
           afford to live in SF, no matter how poor you are, you just
           have to reset your expectations of how much space you deserve.
           have to reset your expectations of how much space you need.
           \- yes, and some people choose to trade drive time for sq footage.
           There are even 70k subsidized housing units here for people
           who are low income. I lived like a college student for 10 years
           and saved up my down payment for a house. Sure it is small,
           but if you went to Scandanavia, you would find that people
           live in small houses there, too. Sure, not every single person
           who works here can live here, but if you want to, you can too,
           you just have to be willing to make the sacrifice. And if nothing
           else, you can live near a BART station. -ausman
        \_ "it is not possible in the United States"?  You're a moron.  It may
           mean moving to a different city and getting a different job.
           \_ Know shit.  Now if OP had said "Fuck the Bay Area" instead of
              "Fuck the USA", I would agree wholeheartedly.  America has many
              many medium sized cities, towns, and a even a few big cities where
              reasonable commutes, homeownership, a good job and a reasonable
              cost of living are all compatible.  The Bay Area just isn't one
              of them.  What amazes me about the Bay Area is that for all its
              money and all its over-educated citizens, it has the worst
              traffic, the shittiest public transit, the worst layout, the most
              bike-unfriendly streets, the biggest rippoff rentals, the biggest
              ripoff homes to buy, and some of the worst pollution of anyplace
              I've seen in the U.S.  And still Bay Areans blather on about the
              superiority of the Bay Area.  Fuck the Bay Area.
              \_ The worst traffic? What? Have you been to Los Angeles?
                 Driven on 405 at 4PM while going 2MPH? Every single day?
                 \_ Ok, fuck LA as well.  I take it for granted that LA sucks.
              \_ Shittiest public transit? Not even close by a country mile.
        \_ Business doesn't need to concentrate in one place. There's no
           reason a lot of those companies in SF couldn't be in, say,
           Stockton. The main reason they are there now, I think, is that
           people *want* to work in SF and so companies move there to
           attract quality employees. Would you rather work on the 50th
           floor with a view of the Golden Gate or in an industrial
           building in Fresno?
           \_ Well, Fresno is kinda a hell-hole, but I think I _might_
              take it over SF.  I can think of other cheap places I might
              actually like to live though, like Chico.
        \_ Four of my uncles and their families immigrated to SF 16yrs ago with
           only a few hunderd dollars in the pocket.  They worked non-tech
           jobs (restaurant cook, driver at senior home, hairdresser, janitor,
           ...), some with two jobs.  Now they own three homes and one 4-apt
           complex (with mortgages, of course) in Sunset District, two small
           restaurants, and have eight kids in high schools and colleges.  Now
           tell me again about the impossibility.  It just comes down to
           spending level.  If one "needs to" eat out everyday, go to movies
           every weekend, refresh the wardrobe every season, go on a trip every
           year, and drive a Beamer, well ...
           \_ Yeah. Well, man, life isn't that long. 16 years of your prime
              adult life working really hard etc.... I think it's admirable
              and all but on the other hand I don't look down on people who
              don't choose to go through such crap just to live in an expensive
              place when they can live pretty nice without doing all that.
              \_ Agreed.  I don't look down on those people either, as long as
                 they admit that "it is possible but I choose not to do that"
                 instead of whining about how impossible it is.  -- PP