5/20    So we've solved the koran flushing problem.  Okay,
        how about the slightly broader torturing innocent
        people problem?
        \_ Start a new thread, dumbass.
           \_ Okay.  Here ya go.
        \_ So who's innocent again?
           \_ According to AI, roughly 90% of the people we round up.
              Did you read the NYT article: http://csua.org/u/c4s
              \_ Oh yes, I've read it.  I've read people call things "torture"
                 that I wouldn't call torture.  And then there's the question
                 of determining innocence without interrogation, etc.
                 \_ You mean the stuff that doesn't cause death or major organ
                    failure? Some whiners actually call that torture!
                 \_ I remember there was a news article that the prisoners
                    called female interrogators stripping, rubbing their
                    breasts against their backs, sitting on their laps, and
                    commenting on their apparent erection torture.  Gee, where
                    can I get training to become a failed terrorist?
                 \_ Preach it brother! Interrogation is a wonderful tool that
                    should be used more often. And what does not kill them
                    makes them stronger, so we're helping them. Another tool
                    we should use is trial by fire. God will save them if they
                    are innocent.
                    \_ I remember there was a news article about someone
                       complaining about being raped.  Gee, where can I
                       myself raped?
        \_ well duh, that's obvious.  Get the foes to fight like a real army,
           wearing uniforms and all that.
           \_ Do you know that we do roundups.  Go into a community gathering
              and grab 50 people because 1 we want _might_ be there.  There's
              no 4th amendment in Iraq or Afghanistan.  Hell, there's no due
              process at all with the people in our prisons there.  We defeated
              the army that wears uniforms.  The people attacking us now are
              regular Iraqis who we went there to "liberate".  Yes yes yes,
              there may be some foreign influence, but they need the support
              of locals to operate.  And when we do shit like this, it doesn't
              help make them not want to support those foreign elements.
           \_ Just because they act like psychotic thugs doesn't mean we
              should.  Ever heard of the moral high ground?  And I believe op
              said "innocent", like that Canadian dude we delivered to the
              Syrian mukhabarat or whatever they're called because they
              aren't so restrictive about genital-clamping people with
              similar names as suspected terrorists.  -John
        \_ I think one aspect of this mess that's often ignored is the treatment
           of American citizen prisoners in American prisons.  All this stuff
           that generated international outrage -- that's the stuff that
           happens in American prisons every day, and passes mostly without
           comment from American media. -- ilyas
           \_ Prove it.
              \_ This is fairly well documented, you can stroll over to
                 http://aclu.org, for instance.  In fact, much as I am not fond of
                 some of the stances ACLU takes, I have to give them credit
                 for immediately linking prisoner abuses abroad with prisoner
                 abuses at home. -- ilyas
                 \_ Okay, I'll check it out.  Thanks for the pointer (though
                    perhaps not for the news).