Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 37727
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2017/10/18 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
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2005/5/18 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:37727 Activity:high
5/17    The L.A. Times editorial board sure is weird on the filibuster issue
        http://csua.org/u/c3q
        \_ "Because the filibuster is at heart a conservative's weapon"
           !?!?
           \_ When you filibuster, you are by definition, blocking change
              and preserving the status quo. It comes from the older
              definition of Conservative, one who tends to resist change
              and prefers to keep tradition.
        \_ It's an interesting argument.  They're arguing that the demise of
           the filibuster promotes a liberal agenda in the long term.  That,
           throughout history, the filibuster has been used primarily by
           conservatives to block liberal legislation.  They do have a point.
           Republicans blocked more of Clinton's nominees via filibuster than
           Democrats have blocked of Bush's nominees.  The LA editorial board
           is actually pushing the argument that the filibuster should be
           disallowed on all Senatorial bills, and that the filibuster causes
           a 51% majority requirement on bills to become a 61% super-majority.
           \_ The cloture rules, as written, make it obvious that you need
              61% to pass bills in the Senate.  It is reasonable to assume
              that the people who wrote the rules wanted it that way for a
              reason.  -tom
           \_ I see your point, but I wonder if a 51% majority is really a
              healthy number for passing laws that affect our entire nation.
              \_ That's another debate altogether.  The founding fathers
                 thought that it was.  Otoh, some interpret the founding
                 fathers' wishes as wanting the Constitution to be a much
                 more fluid, living document of laws, and thus, perhaps
                 the present acrimony means that a comfortable majority of 51%
                 is no longer enough.  But this is all speculation.
           \_ None of Clinton's judges were blocked by filibuster.
              \_ Now now.  No fair actually using facts.  These people redefine
                 filibuster to support their argument.  They can have their
                 reality.
                 \_ And the R's don't redefine terms constantly?  The over-
                    riding story they've been pitching is that nominees deserve
                    an up or down vote.  As many of them participated in deny-
                    ing such votes in the past when the balance of power was
                    reversed, they are hypocrits, pure and simple.  I believe
                    that it's excellent to have the filibuster available for
                    appointments because it encourages compromise.  You want
                    your people through, you convince more than just your side.
                    And it's a very notable point that the vast majority of
                    the nominees have been confirmed already.
                    \_ By "these people" I didn't mean D's.  I meant people who
                       don't give a damn about truth or consistency, but only
                       care about the R or the D.  Are there people like that
                       with R's?  Yes.
                  \_ They used another procedure which allowed them to block
                     appointees. A procedure which has seen been changed so
                     that can no longer be used. Even many Republicans called
                     it a "filibuster" so you can understand the confusion.
                     And there were attempted filibusters of Clinton nominees,
                     just unsuccessful ones. Or is it only wrong if you
                     are successful?
                     http://mediamatters.org/items/200503160004
                     \_ Ah yes, that left-wing http://mm.org
                        \_ Ah yes, the shoot the messenger approach.  When you
                           can't deny the facts, tar the presenter.
                           \_ Hey I learned this from the best liberals.
                              \_ Most liberals I know are more than willing to
                                 change their mind when presented with
                                 verifiable facts, myself included.  The same
                                 cannot be said for most conservatives I know.
                                 As intelligence increases, this distinction
                                 breaks down.
                                 \_ Ha ha ha ha ha ha!  Ha!
                                    \_ Hint, your bumper sticker arguments are
                                       probably neither verifiable nor based
                                       on facts.
                                    \_ Most liberals I know are the same way.
                                       The very definition of the word liberal
                                       includes openness to change. Perhaps
                                       you hang out with the wrong liberals,
                                       or perhaps the only "liberals" you are
                                       familiar with are the ones you hear
                                       about on Fox News and Michael Savage.
                                 \_ "When people think, Democrats win" -Bubba
                              \_ e.g.?
                                 \_ WorldNetDaily, freepers, etc.
                                    \_ Ha ha ha, liberals, right.
                        \_ Is there anything in that article or my statement
                           that is incorrect as opposed to inconvenient
                           to your interpretation of the world?
                           \_ "In fact, Republicans filibustered several of
                              then-President Clinton's ambassadorial and
                              Justice Department appointments in the 1990s and
                              attempted to filibuster Clinton's judicial
                              nominees."  Patently false.
                              \_ Did you read the whole article?  Do you doubt
                                 the Washington Post's and New York Times'
                                 reporting on Senate dealings?
                                 \_ You mean the 85-12 vote to cut off an
                                    "attempted" filibuster?  Doesn't sound like
                                    a filibuster to me.  No, I don't trust this
                                    site to accurately quote the sources, and I
                                    don't trust the NY Times period.  The Post
                                    is iffy.
                                    \_ You're really not worth talking to.
                                 \_ Name a Clinton appointee who was
                                    filibustered.  Go for it.
                                    \_ Did you read the article?  Sam Brown.
                                       For judicial nominees, as the article
                                       says, there were a number of attempts
                                       at fillibustering his nominees.  There
                                       were also a number of others that never
                                       went to a committee hearing because they
                                       blocked them procedurally.
                                       \_ I'm unable to confirm Sam Brown
                                          anywhere else.  Can you?
                                          \_ How 'bout the congressional
                                             record?
                    http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?r103:E08JN4-62
                                             \_ Nope.  The house is not the
                                                senate, and considering how
                                                people seem to redefine
                                                filibuster, this isn't
                                                acceptable.
                                                \_ You're a fucking imbecile.
                                                   \_ You've got to be kidding
                                                      me.  Wait...does the next
                                                      line go "I know you are
                                                      but what am I"?
                                                      \_ To believe that the
                                                         sources offered are
                                                         tricking you, you
                                                         would have to be
                                                         dangerously unbalanced
                                                         or mind-bogglingly
                                                         stupid. Either way,
                                                         you're not worth
                                                         talking to.
                                                         \_ I don't believe
                                                            they're "tricking"
                                                            me.  The quote I
                                                            found yesterday had
                                                            a R senator saying
                                                            that stopping
                                                            someone in
                                                            committee is a
                                                            filibuster.  Just
                                                            having the word
                                                            'filibuster' isn't
                                                            enough.
                                             Also Henry Foster for Surgeon
                                             General in 1995.  Let's see
                                             if your researching skills are
                                             better on him.
                                             \_ Okay, I can verify that.  Which
                                                explains the R's limiting the
                                                claim to judges.
                                                \_ After they applied the claim
                                                   in general...
                                                \_ So, as the person says
                                                   below, are these filibusters
                                                   only "wrong" when they
                                                   succeed?
                                \_ So your position is that it is moral to
                                   attempt a filibuster as long as you
                                   don't succeed? Only successful filibusters
                                   are immoral and unconstitutional?
                                   \_ It's seriously fun watching Frist try
                                      to make this maneuver.
                                   \_ I've no position on the "morality" of a
                                      filibuster.  I'm for getting rid of it
                                      entirely.
                                      \_ So you admit the Republicans are
                                         hypocrites, but you support them
                                         anyway.
                                         anyway. Did you have the same
                                         opinion about the filibuster when
                                         Clinton was in office?
                                      \_ So.. you want the senate to be the
                                         house with fewer people...
                                         \_ The filibuster and size aren't the
                                            only differences between the house
                                            and senate.  And if you distrust
                                            the house, should we eliminate it?
2017/10/18 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
10/18   

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csua.org/u/c3q -> www.latimes.com/news/opinion/editorials/la-ed-filibuster18may18,0,4593651.story
Count this page on the side of conservative social activists who are pushing Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist to " nuke" the filibuster. We don't share these activists' enthusiasm for the White House judicial n ominees triggering the current showdown. But we do believe that nominees are entitled to a vote on the floor of the Senate. The filibuster, an a rcane if venerable parliamentary tactic that empowers a minority of 41 s enators to block a vote, goes above and beyond those checks on majority power legitimately written into the Constitution. ADVERTISEMENT The filibuster is an inherently reactionary instrument most famously used to block civil rights legislation for a generation. Democratic senators themselves decried the filibuster not long ago when they were in the ma jority and President Clinton's judicial nominees were being blocked. Frist is on the verge of doing the right thing for the wrong reasons. He plans to bring the nomination of Priscilla R Owen, a Texas Supreme Cour t justice, before the full Senate today. Democrats have blocked her nomi nation in the past, and Frist is now threatening to force a change in ru les to prohibit filibusters of judicial nominees. It would be an even greater triumph if the Senate were to destroy the filibuster altogether. Alas, we shouldn't uncork the champagne bottles just yet. Because the fil ibuster is at heart a conservative's weapon, and because Frist is essent ially asking senators (regardless of their ideology) to relinquish some of their individual power, we're fearful that the centrists may yet prev ail. That would be one judicious compromise that would deny the American people a worthwhile victory.
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mediamatters.org/items/200503160004
In advocating the so-called "nuclear option" to bar Senate filibusters ag ainst judicial nominees, Fox News host Sean Hannity and Roll Call execut ive editor Morton M Kondracke gave misleading accounts of historical ef forts to block nominees. On the March 15 edition of Hannity & Colmes, Ha nnity declared that "this is the first time in history that this has bee n used against nominees that would be confirmed." The same day on Fox Ne ws' Special Report with Brit Hume, Kondracke said that "there's never be en a judicial nomination that actually went to a filibuster, and the Dem ocrats have filibustered a number of President Bush's nominees." In fact , Republicans filibustered several of then-President Clinton's ambassado rial and Justice Department appointments in the 1990s and attempted to f ilibuster Clinton's judicial nominees. blocked approximately 60 Clinton judicial nominees, denying them votes on the Senate floor and d enying most even a hearing before the Senate Judiciary Committee. In addition to the approximately 60 judicial nominees that the Republican -led Senate blocked without resorting to a filibuster, several Republica n senators, including current Majority Leader Bill Frist (R-TN), unsucce ssfully attempted to filibuster other Clinton judicial nominees. reported on November 13, 2003: "As recently as March 2000, several Republicans voted to filibuster two Californians whom Pres ident Clinton had named to the 9th Circuit appellate court: Richard A P aez and Marsha L Berzon. Ultimately, the Republican stalling tactic s failed, and both jurists now sit on the appellate court." The Washingt on Post documented a third attempted filibuster of a Clinton judicial no minee on October 5, 1994: The Senate "voted 85 to 12 to cut off a filibu ster against confirmation of US District Judge H Lee Sarokin as a mem ber of the 3rd US Circuit Court of Appeals. noted in the March 3 issue of The Nation, Frist distorted the facts to defend his participation in the filibuster of the Paez nomination: When confronted about his vote late last year, Frist claimed he filibust ered Paez for "scheduling" purposes. A press release by forme r Senator Bob Smith titled "Smith Leads Effort to Block Activist Judici al Nominees" plainly states that the intent of the filibuster was to "b lock" the Paez nomination. In the first several years of Clinton's presidency, Republicans in the Se nate also used the filibuster to block several non-judicial nominees. Dellinger to become Assistant Attorney General for the office of legal counsel." Sim ilarly, the Washington Post reported on May 25, 1994, that the Senate "f ailed by six votes to break a GOP-led filibuster against the ambassadori al nomination of one-time anti-Vietnam War activist Sam Brown." Finally, Republicans did sustain a filibuster against the promotion of a Democratic president's judicial appointee in 1968. reported on December 13, 2004: "In 1968, Republicans filibustered Pre sident Lyndon B Johnson's choice of Supreme Court Justice Abe Fortas to be chief justice, but Johnson withdrew the nomination in the face of Fo rtas's likely rejection by the Senate."
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