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| 2005/4/8-10 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:37120 Activity:very high |
4/8 First Bolemic Lady and now a woman in Georgia is being starved to death. In
this woman's case however the woman's living will is being ignored.
She's not in a persistenet vegitative state nor is she comatose. The
granddaughter says "She has glaucoma and now this heart problem, and
who would want to live with disabilities like these?" She's also
prayed about it apparently and says "Grandmama is old and I think it is
time she went home to Jesus."
\_ She's prayed about it...who are we to doubt the will of Jesus? -tom
\_ Yeah, how would you feel as an atheist if someone prayed for you
and decided you were ready to die? -emarkp
\_ If I was incapable of understanding what was going on, I
don't think I'd feel much about it. Why do you think the
grandmother is an atheist? -tom
\_ I don't know if she's an atheist, but I'm fairly confident
that you are. And the question was directed to you, not
her. -emarkp
\_ I'll ask again, since you obviously have infinite free
time: what the FUCK is your point? Aside from the
fact that stirring up mindless bile among your
fellow social conservatives helps bring about your
theocracy, why are you so concerned with other
people's business? Maybe you should take heed of
the fact that if Christian fundamentalists really do
take over this country, mormons won't fare any better
than us liberal athiests.
\_ The irony here is palpable. I'm not for a
democratic theocracy. I don't like the idea of
people being starved to death when their wishes are
unknown or known to be against dying. -emarkp
\_ Don't argue with him, tom. Bolemic Lady's probably already
a Mormon by now thanks to posthumous baptism. JPII
too most likely too by now.
\_ Well, if you're really not interested in
turning this country into a far-right theocracy,
you should re-think some things. Do you really
not see what's going on here? The media circuses
surrounding various moral issues is to soften up
appointments in May. It is all part of a
so that the far right can force their extremist
have occured daily forever. Doesn't the timing
of this explosion of politics seem just the
tiniest bit odd to you? Think about it. Based
on your other posts, I don't think you are an
evil guy, but I'm afraid that you have decided
to act as a tool of evil by spouting the party
line of the far-right theocrats.
\_ Don't argue with him, tom. Terri's probably
already a Mormon by now thanks to posthumous
baptism. JPII too most likely too by now.
\_ Aaron!?! You're back! And you can't spell
"bulimic". -emarkp
\_ So you admit that your question was nothing but a
red herring? OK, thanks. I already answered your
question for me, and it added absolutely nothing to
the discussion.
I certainly don't see how someone whose brain and
bodily systems are all in an advanced state of
failure can think that Jesus wants her to live. -tom
\_ Um, this subthread was about the Georgia woman, who
doesn't have the problems you describe. -emarkp
\_ yes, she does. -tom
\_ Where does any story say that? -emarkp
\_ Then it'd be like that six month old boy that a hospital
put to death in Texas, despite the pleas from this mother!
CULTURE OF LIFE!!
\_ obTroll: Remind me again how many people Texas knocks
off every year? Oh, that's different. -John
The only online story I can find about
it is here: http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43688
Please don't dismiss it just because it's worldnetdaily. I'll happily
eat my words if the facts turn out to be different, but I've heard a
phone conversation with Ken Mullinax (the elderly woman's nephew). You
can listen to it free here (windows media unfortunately):
http://www.glennbeck.com/audio/free-audio.shtml (first link)
-emarkp
\_ Stop saying "starved to death". They are not being starved to death.
Their disease process is killing them, not starvation.
\_ What you meant to say was, most neurologists say a PVS patient
doesn't suffer, since they have no perception of pain.
\_ Wow, your ignorance is stunning. What "disease" did "they" have?
-emarkp
\_ OK I was referring to Terri, not your new person.
\_ What "disease" did Terri have? -emarkp
\_ OK I was referring to Bolemic Lady, not your new person.
\_ What "disease" did Bolemic Lady have? -emarkp
\_ Oh I don't know, maybe some shit called necrosis
rotting away in her brain from old events due to
her eating disorder. She was as close to dead
as possible, so don't even try to say she was
healthy. The only reason you and others think
she was functioning was because her eyes were
open in a creepy sort of way, fooling you into
believing she was engaging you. Yeah, the lack
of food tipped the scales finally, but that was
hardly a major blow. Starvation was the least of
her worries.
\_ She only needed food and water to survive, just
like you and me. Also, I've never seen proof of
any eating disorder. It's commonly noted, but
her family disputes that it was ever established.
Can you point to proof of her eating disorder?
-emarkp
\_ OK, how can we prove anything then? This
actually brings up a very good point, which is
that NONE of her situation is for us to
discuss. And by us I mean anyone that isn't
her, her husband, her parents, and her medical
team (which means no dumbass lawmakers and
politicians of course). The issue of one's end
of life is an extremely personal issue that is
only relevant to the few select people I
mentioned, for they are the ONLY ones that
know the true situation in all its intimate
and fine detail. This is not our business (and
it never was), so let's stop discussing it.
\_ The *real* question in the issue is why did
her husband have the only vote when there
was doubt about her wishes. *That's* what
we need to discuss. If Terri had left
we need to discuss. If Bolemic Lady had left
written instructions, I'd have no beef.
Though it may not have helped her, as it
hasn't for the woman in Georgia. -emarkp
\_ For CHRISSAKE! He didn't have the only
fucking vote. There were multiple
relations who testified to her wishes.
Her parents had their day in court.
The system did its job. Get the hell
over it.
\_ No, the court system determined that
he had the only vote. I don't
understand how the judge did that.
-emarkp
\_ Because he was 1) her husband,
2) her legal guardian, and 3) when
challenged, the judge decided not
to change the guardianship. And
if you start screaming about his
"infidelity" again, we've been
through it. Bury this dead horse.
\_ Do you have a point?
\_ Now wouldn't have it been a lot better if protestors rallied to this
person's cause instead of Terri's?
\_ Terri's story had more time to build up, but I'd say yes, that
person's cause instead of Bolemic Lady's?
\_ Bolemic Lady's story had more time to build up, but I'd say yes, that
person's cause instead of Anorexia's?
\_ Anorexia's story had more time to build up, but I'd say yes, that
this is more important than her case because (if the facts are
right) they're killing someone against her express wishes.
-emarkp
\_ If this is indeed true, and someone wrongly claimed to have power
of attourney, this is bad, and should come to legal trouble for the
hospice and for the claimant to PoA. However, as the only sources so
far are wnd and a few right leaning blogs, I'll continue to be
skeptical. --scotsman
\_ Did you listen to the audio?
\_ no. but it appears to be an interview from someone who made
plenty of hay out of schiavo. Get a journalist on the case
and i'll lose some skepticism. check the validity of the
will. check out the PoA claims. strip the hysterics and give
me the facts.
\_ Ah. So you're not willing to evaluate the case because
Beck was in the don't-starve-Terri camp? Nice piece of
Beck was in the don't-starve-Bolemic Lady camp? Nice piece of
work. -emarkp
\_ Uh, no, i'm not willing to evaluate the case because
everything you've posted and everything on google news
about it is from interested parties. Find me a couple
disinterested observers as sources, and I'll consider
it. For now it feels like an attempted echo chamber.
\_ Pinch hitting for Pedro Borbon... Manny Mota....
\_ People who lose credibility often find it tough
to regain anyones trust. The whole Terri Schiavo
crowd, by their pointless campaign to smear her
husband by spreading a bunch of lies, has lost
my trust and respect.
\_ Now here is a non-WND link: link:csua.org/u/bm7 -emarkp
\_ I don't doubt that even if this particular story is skewed,
in the real world stuff like "Kid doesn't want to take care
of granny anymore for [laziness|greed|revenge|stupidity] and
sticks it to granny against her expressed wishes" is not new to
the 21st century.
\_ what is new is the idea that random nutjobs in Utah think
they should have something to do with the decision. -tom
\_ What does Utah have to do with this? -emarkp
\_ Dum dum dum dum dum...
\_ You mean you just discovered that people starve to death in America?
This kind of stuff has been going on for a long time.
\_ Hey 80 col Nazi! You keep deleting lines that are 79 or 80 chars.
What's your problem? -emarkp
\_ Yeah, doesn't he know that [79 columns|3 out of 4 neurologists
who have done a neurological exam and say she's PVS for 12+
years] is acceptable to most people? [80 columns which causes
automatic linebreaks|evil grandkid ignoring living will] crosses
a line, though.
\_ emarkp, do you realize all of the following:
(1) In Feb 2000, the court determined "by clear and convincing
evidence that Mrs. Schiavo would then elect to cease
evidence that Mrs. Bolemic Lady would then elect to cease
evidence that Mrs. Terri would then elect to cease
life-prolonging procedures if she were competent to make her own
decision".
(2) Her parents appealed.
(3) The Florida appeals court affirmed the decision in Jan 2001.
(4) The Florida appeals court denied re-hearing in Feb 2001.
(5) The Florida Supreme Court denied review of the case in Apr 2001.
(6) Since then there have been multiple motions claiming new
evidence, but all the courts have come back leaving the original
decision intact.
Sure, innocents are executed in capital crimes. Just as well,
Terri Schiavo might be a case where the court is wrong. And, I can
this might be a case where the court is wrong. And, I can
see how it would make sense to create a law that said you can't
kill someone in a PVS unless they have put it in writing. I can
also see how it would make sense to have a law that says you can't
kill a criminal unless there is no doubt (as opposed to beyond a
reasonable doubt) that person committed a capital crime. Your
focus should be on creating the former law, and you do a great
disservice to your cause by not clearly stating this. In addition
to saying "If Terri had left written instructions, I'd have no
to saying "If Bolemic Lady had left written instructions, I'd have no
beef", you should also say, "I support a law requiring such". Stop
complaining about the effects of the rules -- petition to change
the rules.
the rules. -jctwu
\_ You do know that this was a judicial review of Judge Greer's
findings of fact, right? There was no 'de novo' review of the
case. Oh, and sign your name. -emarkp
\_ Because congress is not allowed to just create new
jurisdictions. Separation of powers. The judge rightly
smacked congress down for it.
\_ This is not strictly correct. Art. 3 allows congress
to enact legislation that provides jurisdiction for
fed cts. The jurisdiction of fed cts is far more
limited than what the framers allowed in Art. 3.
Please note that the judges did not rule on whether
the act of congress creating jurisdiction for Bolemic Lady's
the act of congress creating jurisdiction for Terri's
case to be heard in fed ct was constitutional. Rather
he ruled on the temp restraining order that was sought
to keep Bolemic Lady alive. In order to be granted a TRO the
to keep Terri alive. In order to be granted a TRO the
party seeking it must show that they will most likely
previal at trial. The parents could not show this so
the lost the motion.
\_ What is "this"? Are you referring to (3)-(5), or the de novo
review that federal courts were ordered by law to conduct?
Before you answer, I urge you to consider carefully what I've
already written. Why argue when we might already agree on
some key points? -jctwu
\_ "Ordered by law"... Heheh. The judge would have had a
hard time deciding which grounds to toss that law out on.
It's a veritable garden of unconstitutionality.
\_ The standard for review of findings of facts by a ct of
appeals is clear error. The only other way to make new
findings of fact is to conduct a new trial.
While it can be argued that congress authorized this,
the text of the statute is not clear. The version I
read simply says 'de novo', it does not state whether
this is a new trial or merely review of the record. If
it is review of the record, then the dist ct only had
the power to review the record and reverse legal
conclusions or findings of fact that were clearly
erroneous; the dist ct would have to assume that the
trial ct's findings of facts were largely true.
Please also see above re the TRO. The parents did not
meet the requirements to be granted a TRO (which has
nothing to do w/ the standard of review).
Terri's case was handled properly w/in the law, even
if the judges didn't like the outcome, they were
constrained to act as they did. If they were to do
otherwise, all stability would be lost.
If the results in this case are not to your liking,
the proper course of action is to have statutes (fed
or state) enacted to ensure a different result.
--ranga
\_ yeah, like in Texas where Bush enacted a statute that
lets hospitals kill patients over the objections of
their caregivers. -tom
\_ I do not know the legislative history of the
the Texas statute that you mention, however
statutes are normally enacted by the legislature
and signed into law by the Gov. Assuming that
this statute became law in that fashion, the
statute can be taken as an expression of the
views of the majority of the citizen of Texas
by their elected representatives. Perhaps the
views of the citizen differ from those of the
caregivers, but why should the views of the
caregivers be given precedence over those of
the general public?
If the enactment of such a statute bothers you
(1) don't live in Texas or (2) work to elect
people who hold other views.
\_ What kind of nonsense is this. So when the
legislature of Indiana defined Pi to be 4,
that was a good thing since it was the will
of the people?
\_ No, because the bible states it should be 3.
Heretic!
\_ The value of pi is a fact, community
opinion doesn't define the value of
pi, nature does. In contrast, the
issue of how to handle end of life
cases are largely based on societal
conventions/opinion and are best
handled by the legislative process.
BTW, if pi were defined as 4, it
just means that we have to change
the rest of our number system, there
is nothing holy about 3.14159...
\_ If smart was defined as stupid, you would
be smart.
\_ Get your facts right. That never happened.
http://www.snopes.com/religion/pi.htm
\_ I'd be willing to bet that if Terri hadn't been white
and photogenic, we'd never have heard of her. |
| 5/29 |
|
| www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43688 Hospice-LaGrange accepted her as a patient about two week s ago upon the request of her granddaughter, Beth Gaddy, 36, an elementa ry school teacher. Also upon Gaddy's request and without prior legal authority, since March 28 Hospice-LaGrange has denied Magouirk normal nourishment or fluids via a feeding tube through her nose or fluids via an IV. She has been kept sedated with morphine and ativan, a powerful tranquillizer. Her nephew, Ken Mullinax, told WorldNetDaily that although Magouirk is gi ven morphine and ativan, she has not received any medication to keep her eyes lubricated during her forced dehydration. "They haven't given her anything like that for two weeks," said Mullinax. Magouirk's husband and only child, a son, are both deceased. In her living will, Magouirk stated that fluids and nourishment were to b e withheld only if she were either comatose or "vegetative," and she is neither. Nor is she terminally ill, which is generally a requirement for admission to a hospice. Magouirk lives alone in LaGrange, though because of glaucoma she relied o n her granddaughter, Beth Gaddy, to bring her food and do errands. Two weeks ago, Magouirk's aorta had a dissection, and she was hospitalize d in the local LaGrange Hospital. Her aortic problem was determined to b e severe, and she was admitted to the intensive care unit. At the time o f her admission she was lucid and had never been diagnosed with dementia . Claiming that she held Magouirk's power of attorney, Gaddy had her transf erred to Hospice-LaGrange, a 16-bed unit owned by the same family that o wns the hospital. Once at the hospice, Gaddy stated that she did not wan t her grandmother fed or given water. "Grandmama is old and I think it is time she went home to Jesus," Gaddy t old Magouirk's brother and nephew, McLeod and Ken Mullinax. "She has gla ucoma and now this heart problem, and who would want to live with disabi lities like these?" Gaddy's telephone is not in operation and she could not be reached for co mment. According to Mullinax, his aunt's local cardiologist in LaGrange, Dr. Raed Agel, a highly acclaimed cardiologist at the na tionally renowned University of Alabama-Birmingham Medical Center, deter mined that her aortic dissection is contained and not life-threatening a t the moment. Mullinax also states that Gaddy did not hold power of attorney, a fact he learned from the hospice's in-house legal counsel, Carol Todd. On March 31, Todd told Ruth and Ken Mullinax during a phone conversation Georgia law stipulated that Ruth Mullinax and her brother, AB McLeod, were entitled to make any and all decisions for Magouirk. Ruth Mullinax immediately told Todd to begin administering food and fluids through an IV and a nasal feeding tube. Todd had the IV fluids started that evening, but informed the family that they would have to come to the hospice to sign papers to have the feedi ng tube inserted. Once that was done, Magouirk would not be able to stay at the hospice. Ken Mullinax recalled that Todd said the only reason Magouirk was in the hospice in the first place was that the LaGrange Hospital had failed to exercise due diligence in closely examining the power of attorney Beth G addy said she had, as well as exercising the provisions of Magouirk's li ving will. Todd explained that Gaddy had only a financial power of attorney, not a m edical power of attorney, and Magouirk's living will carefully provided that a feeding tube and fluids should only be discontinued if she was co matose or in a "vegetative state" and she was neither. Under the terms of his ruling, Gaddy was granted full and absolute author ity over Magouirk, at least for the weekend. She took advantage of her j udge-granted power by ordering her grandmother's feeding tube pulled out , just hours after it had been inserted. Georgia law requires that a hearing for an emergency guardianship must be held within three days of its request, and Magouirk's hearing was held April 4 before Judge Boyd. Apparently, he has not made a final ruling, b ut favors giving permanent guardianship power to Gaddy, who is anxious t o end her grandmother's life. Hospice Patients Alliance, a pat ients' rights advocacy group based in Michigan, told WND that what is ha ppening to Magouirk is not at all unusual. "This is happening in hospices all over the country," he said. and the hospice will say they are terminally ill even if they're not. If feeding is withheld, they die within 10 days to two wee ks. He pointed out tha t one of the ironies in this tragedy is that the now-helpless woman work ed for years as a secretary for a prominent local cancer doctor. "She devoted her whole life to helping those who heal others, and now she 's being denied sustenance for life," he said. Mullinax said he has begged Gaddy to let him take on full responsibility for his aunt's care. "If she would just give us a chance to keep Aunt Mae alive, that's all we ask," he said. have a family and Beth is a teacher, and it was just getting to be a lot of trouble. But I'm the caregiver for my mom, and Aunt Mae could move in with us. We 'll buy another house with a bedroom and we'll take care of her. She can move in with us once she can leave the hospital." Her vital signs are s till good, but since admission to hospice she has not been lucid "but who would be since nourishment and fluids have been denied since March 2 8," Mullinax remarked. a message on her vo icemail said she would be gone the entire week of April 4 Hospice-LaGra nge did not return phone calls. WorldNetDaily has been reporting on the Terri Schiavo story since 2002 far longer than most other national news organization and exposing the many troubling, scandalous, and possibly criminal, aspects of the case that to this day rarely surface in news reports. "Life and Death in America" a stunning special inves tigative report that will start with the Terri Schiavo story, but will g o on to expose as never before America's rapidly expanding euthanasia/"r ight-to-die" movement will be the focus of an upcoming issue of WND's acclaimed monthly Whistleblower magazine. |
| www.glennbeck.com/audio/free-audio.shtml Free Audio from the Program Here are various clips from the show which we've made available for free. This is just a small percentage of the audio we have available. March 30, 2005 Interview with Bobby Schindler Glenn interviews Terri Schiavo's brother after he takes part in a press c onference with Jesse Jackson. March 29, 2005 Interview with Bobby Schindler Glenn interviews Terri Schiavo's brother after he takes part in a press c onference with Jesse Jackson. March 24, 2005 Interview with Bobby Schindler Glenn interviews Terri Schiavo's brother on the day when a the Supreme Co urt rejects Terri's appeal. March 23, 2005 Interview with Suzanne Schindler Glenn interviews Terri Schiavo's sister, Suzanne Schindler on the day whe n a the 11th Circuit Court rejects Terri's appeal. March 22, 2005 Interview with Bobby Schindler Glenn interviews Terri Schiavo's brother, Bobby Schindler on the day when a federal judge rejects Terri's appeal. Glenn Beck's Easter Essay set to the music of Pink Floy d Go on a journey that transcends space and time when Glenn narrates the st ory of Easter with the music of Pink Floyd as the musical backdrop. MP3 Who's in the White House MP3 - Military Remix Glenn Beck did a personal remix for the soldiers in Iraq who might want t o play this on an endless loop as they battle terrorists. John Kerrys Vision for America What exactly is John Kerrys vision for America? The Glenn Beck Program h as put together this audio special that contains every hopeful, bold, vi sionary statement that John Kerry has made on the campaign trail over th e last 18 months. Glenn Beck Interview with Colin Powell On June 23, 2004 Glenn Beck interviewed Secretary of State Colin L Powel l Listen back to the complete audio selection. Veterans Day Essay Listen to this emotional narration of a soldiers life through the Vietna m War. A tribute to Memorial Day and to our soldiers who died in defense of freedom. Almost All Things Considered-The Real America Insider After Show Show Exclusive from 10/03/03 - Almost All Things Consi ders takes a look at Glenn's new book, 'The Real America'. You'll never hear this on the radio, and after listening to this you'll know why. |
| www.snopes.com/religion/pi.htm Click here Claim: Responding to pressure from religious groups, Alabama's state legislature redefined the value of pi from 314159 to 3 in order to bring it in line with Biblical precepts. The bill to change the value of pi to exactly three was I am not square! introduced without fanfare by Leonard Lee Lawson (R, Crossville), and rapidly gained support after a letter-writing campaign by members of the Solomon Society, a traditional values group. Governor Guy Hunt says he will sign it into law on Wednesday. The law took the state's engineering community by surprise. "It would have been nice if they had consulted with someone who actually uses pi," said Marshall Bergman, a manager at the Ballistic Missile Defense Organization. According to Bergman, pi is a Greek letter that signifies the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter. It is often used by engineers to calculate missile trajectories. Kim Johanson, a mathematician from University of Alabama, said that pi is a universal constant, and cannot arbitrarily be changed by lawmakers. Johanson explained that pi is an irrational number, which means that it has an infinite number of digits after the decimal point and can never be known exactly. "I think that it is the mathematicians that are being irrational, and it is time for them to admit it," said Lawson. "The Bible very clearly says in I Kings 7:23 that the alter font of Solomon's Temple was ten cubits across and thirty cubits in diameter, and that it was round in compass." Lawson called into question the usefulness of any number that cannot be calculated exactly, and suggested that never knowing the exact answer could harm students' self-esteem. "We need to return to some absolutes in our society," he said, "the Bible does not say that the font was thirty-something cubits. Science supports Lawson, explains Russell Humbleys, a propulsion technician at the Marshall Spaceflight Center who testified in support of the bill before the legislature in Mongtomery on Monday. Humbleys is working on a theory which he says will prove that pi is determined by the geometry of three-dimensional space, which is assumed by physicists to be "isotropic", or the same in all directions. "There are other geometries, and pi is different in every one of them," says Humbleys. Scientists have arbitrarily assumed that space is Euclidean, he says. He points out that a circle drawn on a spherical surface has a different value for the ratio of circumfence to diameter. "Anyone with a compass, flexible ruler, and globe can see for themselves," suggests Humbleys, "its not exactly rocket science." Roger Learned, a Solomon Society member who was in Montgomery to support the bill, agrees. He said that pi is nothing more than an assumption by the mathematicians and engineers who were there to argue against the bill. "These nabobs waltzed into the capital with an arrogance that was breathtaking," Learned said. "Their prefatorial deficit resulted in a polemical stance at absolute contraposition to the legislature's puissance." Some education experts believe that the legislation will affect the way math is taught to Alabama's children. One member of the state school board, Lily Ponja, is anxious to get the new value of pi into the state's math textbooks, but thinks that the old value should be retained as an alternative. She said, "As far as I am concerned, the value of pi is only a theory, and we should be open to all interpretations." She looks forward to students having the freedom to decide for themselves what value pi should have. Robert S Dietz, a professor at Arizona State University who has followed the controversy, wrote that this is not the first time a state legislature has attempted to redifine the value of pi. A legislator in the state of Indiana unsuccessfully attempted to have that state set the value of pi to three. According to Dietz, the lawmaker was exasperated by the calculations of a mathematician who carried pi to four hundred decimal places and still could not achieve a rational number. Many experts are warning that this is just the beginning of a national battle over pi between traditional values supporters and the technical elite. "We just want to return pi to its traditional value," he said, "which, according to the Bible, is three." Origins: This wonderful bit of creative writing began circulating on the Internet in April 1998. origins on 1 April 1998 as well as sent to a list of New Mexican scientists and citizens interested in evolution and printed in the April issue of the New Mexicans for Science and Reason newsletter NMSR Reports. origins poster followed up a day later with a full confession and explanation of the prank, thereby allowing others to share in the fun. One would have thought that would have been the end of it. Several readers forwarded the piece to friends and posted it to other newsgroups. As the story moved along, what would have easily identified it as a parody and not a news item was stripped out: the attribution to "April Holiday" of the "Associmated Press." There is not now and never has been a bill in front of the Alabama state legislature to redefine the value of pi. With one exception, none of the names given in this fanciful account stand up to scrutiny. He is a former governor of Alabama, convicted in 1993 for diverting $200,000 from his inaugural fund to his personal use. Though the claim about the Alabama state legislature is pure nonsense, it is similar to an event that happened more than a century ago. In 1897 the Indiana House of Representatives unanimously passed a measure redefining the area of a circle and the value of pi. htm Urban Legends Reference Pages 1995-2003 by Barbara and David P Mikkelson This material may not be reproduced without permission References Sources: Bussmann, Tom. |