4/6     My banks, brokers and credit card companies are promoting paperless
        statements.  If I tell them to stop mailing me paper statements, and
        later there's a gitch on their computers, will I be in a disadvantage
        proving my case with prinouts from their web pages compare to if I
        have their paper statements?  I'm trying to see if it's a good idea to
        stop the paper statements in my mailbox in order to avoid ID theft.
        Thx.
        \_ Can you ask them whether they can somehow sign their statements
           that they send to you (x.509 cert, pgp, etc.?)  What's the
           situation on digital signing/non-repudiation in the US right now
           anyway?  Even if there's no precedent or legal basis for it, it
           might still be better than just an occasional email or web page
           printout.  If you're worried about ID theft from paper statements,
           there are easier ways of doing it (credit card slips, for example.)
           You could just get a PO box too.  If your bank is putting info that
           could be used to compromise your authentication details on paper
           statements, find a new bank.  -John
           \_ All my bank and credit card paper statements have account numbers
              on them.  I think stealing mail from my mailbox at the front of
              my house in broad daylight is very easy.
           \_ my friends in comp security all say digital signature and
              non-repudiation is a non-issue.  the courts don't care and will
              accept all kinds of strange records if presented w/ an
              avidavit/oath of truth.  hell, fax'd signatures are enough,
              and anyone can forge one of those.  records are the starting
              point for deliberation, not the endpoint.
              \_ It's an issue in countries with a proper legal framework, and
                 with banks that give a rat's ass (American banks are
                 notorious in that regard, and for not paying a lot of
                 attention to proper authentication.)  Will a paper statement
                 serve as proof in court in case of a dispute?  I'm asking
                 because you're essentially trusting their record keeping
                 (such as transaction serial #s, etc.) to verify the
                 authenticity of the documentation.  -John
        \_ I think you should do a risk assessment of using the bank's
           record keeping vs. your own and see which is more likely to fail.
           \_ Yes my record is more likely to fail, but that's not the issue.
              If my record has a mistake, the bank is not going to go by my
              record to determine how much I have left in my account.  But if
              the bank record has a mistake, the bank will most likely go by
              its record unless I can prove otherwise.  Now my question is:
              does a printout from a web page as good a proof as the fancy
              paper statement from the bank?
              \_ I think you'll find neither of them can prove a balance.
                 the record of transactions is useful so you can ask for
                 details on any transactions that occured which are not
                 in your records, e.g. reconciliation of accounts.
        \_ I filed a small claims lawsuit and needed to print out a statement.
           8 months passed between when I filed for the claim and when the
           trial's gonna happen. That month I tried to print out bank
           statements but it said "Sorry we only go back to 6 months." I
           had no choice but to delay the trial date. What a drag.
        \_ I think if you care about these sort of things, then you should
           keep the paper copy. I do the same thing for the very same reason.