4/5 Pope JP2's death reminds me of Ronald Reagan's death. I don't agree
with most of Reagan's policies and in fact I think they're stupid.
Tax break for the super wealthy, military spending explosion,
aggressive [redneck] foreign policies, etc. However, when he's on
camera he's so nice looking and charming and I just can't help it
liking him. Ditto with JP2. I don't agree with b-control and other
crap JP2 says but I still like him for some reason.
\_ A tax cut that moved the highest bracket from 70% to 28%. 70%!!?!
How did we ever allow that? It's immoral!
\_ You shouldn't tax the rich, they CREATE jobs and equal
opportunity for everyone! Just look at Microsoft, WalMart,
and Dell! Every employee looks so happy and they REALLY believe
in their company! Let's all turn America into one big happy
corporate family. Yeah!
\_ You're being dense. Nobody's arguing against taxing "the
rich" (what the hell kind of dumbshit stupid, ill-educated
American fat-buttocked Fox viewer demagoguery is that,
anyway?) The point is that taking 70% of a person's
earnings is, besides being counter-productive (as it removes
the motivation to excel, etc. etc.) is just theft. Please
stop it with the "anyone who argues against fleecing teh
r1ch is a bloated plutocrat pig, workers of the world
unite!" horse shit, it's unworthy. -John
\_ According to your argument, any tax at all is "theft."
What is the difference between taxing at 70% and 50%?
50% and 20%? Do you think that all taxes should be
abolished because they are "theft"? Why not? What is
magical about 70%? Plenty of countries tax at
a marginal 70% rate and somehow manage to muddle through.
\_ I believe that any tax taken, regardless of rate, by
a government that does not do its utmost to use its
citizens' money responsibly and conservatively is
theft. Nowhere from my statement can you infer that I
belive "any tax at all is theft". Furthermore, while
there is a large gray area, there comes a point at
which taxation is oppressive. I maintain that, once
more of your earnings are taken from you as taxes than
go to you, a boundary of what is reasonable has been
crossed. And I believe you used the magic word,
"muddle". Is that something to strive for? -John
\_ Microsoft has made a lot of very ordinary Americans very
wealthy.
\_ The Waltons were smarter than Gates, they made sure their
money didn't leak out as in the case of M$.
\_ It is inhumane to tax the super rich. Imagine the pain
Paris Hilton has to go through when she can only afford to buy a
BMW 740i instead of a Ferrari Testarosa, or the suffering of
George W. Bush when he can only play at a cheapo 4 star golf
course instead of a full fledged 5 star golf course. It's
simply unusual and cruel punishment.
\_ It doesn't even cause that. They still afford what they want.
\_ Don't forget Paris resorted to making herself a porn in order
to afford a BMW 740i. That's cruel punishment.
\_ Do you not understand how marginal tax rates work?
\_ Yes I do. A 70% marginal rate is immoral.
\_ What a strange and twisted version of ethics you must have.
\_ I could argue it's immoral to allow billionares to exist when
there are people starving.
\_ It's immoral to allow my neighbor to own a Ferrari when I
only drive an Audi. What the fuck kind of argument is this?
Spawning season on planet thick? -John
\_ Having to drive an Audi is not very much like starving
to death. Your analogy is flawed.
\_ Of course it's flawed, it's downright silly. Now tell
me where exactly the line is. Until then you have no
argument. And from whom should we expropriate assets
to feed all these people? Billionaires? Millionaires?
Over $500k? $100k? Yes it sucks that there's poverty
and starvation and hurt and whatnot and we should all
do what we can, but please, do give me a working model
that relies on a Robin Hood approach. -John
\_ Just because I cannot give you an exact answer
without further experimentation doesn't mean
that no experiment is worth doing. Sweden is
a pretty good working model, I would say. So
are Canada, Denmark, The Netherlands, Germany,
France, Italy and even Switzerland.
\_ I am going to guess that you subscribe to the
utopian ideals of Europe and Canada instead
of witnessing the realities.
\_ No, I have been to all these countries.
Canada and The Netherlands are especially nice.
\_ Holland *USED* to be nice. My mother
was born there and lived there until 16.
All the rest of her family is still there.
They used to always make fun of how bad
things like education, crime, and medicine
were in the US. Now, many of them are
shopping for houses here in the US. It's
not nice like it once was. The system is
collapsing.
\_ Sweden has been haemorrhaging educated
professionals for years who forsake it for the
UK (!) and its lower taxes. All Scandinavian
countries have massive immigration problems, and
can't cope (as the rest of Europe) with their
overburdened welfare systems. Switzerland has
way lower taxes and stingy welfare, and will face
the same problems. You're right about "it's
worth trying something". But blind truisms about
redistribution of wealth at the expense of "the
rich" isn't it. Some people will always simply
be wealthier than others--life isn't fair; you
cannot enforce uniform economic equality. -John
\_ No one is arguing for enforced equality. That
is a straw man you made up to avoid talking
about the real issue: what is a fair top
marginal rate. You claim that 70% is immoral,
but have provided no evidence as to why that
is so, other than your feelings. Sweden is
doing fine economically actually, much better
than the rest of Europe. And "the line" to
answer your previous question, is that point
where society provides enough resources to
keep anyone from starving to death. I don't
think it is too much to ask from those who
are the primary beneficiaries of that same
society.
\_ OK. To be honest, I would add "a roof over
everyone's head" and even "education" to
that mix. I simply massively criticize the
extreme polemicization of the idea of
forced redistribution--i.e. the systematic
fleecing of "the rich" rather than a
decent tax system (which nobody's arguing
against.) Governments are massively
inefficient organizations, and it's wrong
to use the classic European welfare states
as examples of how to do things right--they
have been either stagnant or coming apart
at the seams. Yes, Holland is nice, but as
a visitor don't let utopian visions cloud
your impressions. I spend a lot of time
in W. Europe and the UK, and there are too
many problems to elaborate on, a lot of
them caused by over-bureaucratization and
crazy government taxation & fiscal
intervention. -John
intervention. Oh yeah, and as for Sweden,
you've probably read the Rijksbank report.
Look at http://tinyurl.com/6ut95 too. -John
\_ Communist! Seriously, by American
standards you are some kind of loonie
liberal.
liberal. I have no doubt that bad
government is bad. I see lots of
bureaucratic bungling in San Francisco,
and we have much less to work with than
they do in the Scandanavian countries.
But the solution to this is to make
the government institutions more
efficient. The Swedes seem to like
their government just fine, so they
must be doing something right. Thanks
for the link, btw, I had not seen that.
http://csua.org/u/bm1 (The Economist)
Sweden is the second fastest growing
economy on that list. And if you go
by GDP/capita, which is what really
matters to a person, they rival the US.
It's growing quickly, the quality of life is great, and according to many _/
economic indicators, they're just dandy. However, this relies on adherence to
a social contract which is slowly coming apart, cultural homogeneity (ditto),
and enough people working to keep up the fun (ditto.) Economic excellence,
entrepreneurship, and personal mobility seem disparaged (i.e. don't get above
your station, sit around having smiling blond babies.) Same in many European
countries. The Swedes (except for aforementioned educated professionals who
are fleeing in droves to avoid taxes) love it, which is great. This model
would not work in many other places--note how high taxes, bureaucracy and
govt. inefficiency have just about destroyed the German economy--and frankly
it frightens me just a bit. And yes I probably am a bit of a commie in some
respects--I think that (a) I deserve quality and accountability for _my_ $$$,
and (b) it doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg. -John
\_ I would argue that the massive deficits of
the USA give a false sense of economic
health.
\_ please do.
\_ that's not very Randian of you
\_ Or very Jeffersonian.
\_ "The property of this country is absolutely concentred
in a very few hands ...
Another means of silently lessening the inequality
of property is to exempt all from taxation below a
certain point, and to tax the higher portions of
property in geometrical progression as they rise."
-Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1785
\_ He was referring to land, which is truly a limited
resource.
\_ So would you agree to cut taxes on one's primary
home, and ramp up tax rates on 2nd, 3rd homes
etc? Currently we have the opposite. The tax
situation is better on a 2nd investment home
and there's no limits.
\_ Sounds reasonable to me. -pp
\_ Just cut down on Asian immigration.
They're like the Jews in the 30s, buying up
cheap land (Silicon Valley land is cheap
relative to expensive Tokyo and HK properties)
and screwing up us natives. Go final solution!
\_ Somehow I doubt you're a "native"
\_ Price per sq ft living space in SF is going
to beat HK soon.
\_ Don't forget the previous paragraph to his letter:
(I am talking about "people starving" vs.
billionaires and morality, not necessarily
Jefferson's views on an income tax)
"As soon as I had got clear of the town I fell in with
a poor woman walking at the same rate with myself and
going the same course. Wishing to know the condition of
the laboring poor I entered into conversation with her.
... As we had walked together near a mile and she has so
far served me as a guide, I gave her, on parting, 24
sous. She burst into tears of a gratitude which I could
perceive was unfeigned because she was unable to utter a
word. ... This little attendrissement, with the solitude
of my walk, led me into a train of reflections on that
unequal ision of property which occasions the numberless
instances of wretchedness which I had observed in this
country and is to be observed all over Europe."
\_ "The rich alone use imported articles, and on these
alone the whole taxes of the General Government are
levied ...
We shall soon see the final extinction of our national
debt, and liberation of our revenues for the defense
and improvement of our country. These revenues will be
levied entirely on the rich. ... The farmer will see his
government supported, his children educated, and the
face of his country made a paradise by the
contributions of the rich alone, without his being
called on to spend a cent from his earnings."
\_ Look, the Gov't should never get more of my income than I do.
That's simple enough.
\_ the government didn't get 70% of anyone's income. Get
a clue. -tom
\_ I am sure it did happen. Why not?
\_ Of the income in the bracket. Are you sure no one ever
had an effective tax rate of >50%?
\_ My overall tax rate, including state and federal
was about 40% in 2000, so I would not be surprised
at all if someone had a 50%+ rate at some point
when the tax rate was higher.
\_ Don't forget to add 8% sales tax, > 50% gas taxes,\
etc, etc.
\_ Don't forget to add 8% sales tax, > 50% gas taxes,
etc, etc.
\_ They were both previously actors.
\_ Ah-nold!
\- As I have said many times, this is really at core a conversation
about "what we owe each other". Well, there are other ways to
formulate the core question, but it isnt a conversation about
tax policy alone. You might want to for example google for
"wilt chamberlain, nozick, liberty upsets patterns". I dont
have a problem with people being wealthy and in general a very
asymmetric distribution of wealth. And I also dont think you
can do much about say the wealthy having better health care
than the avg person. But in certain areas, we can do something
about keeping a level playing field or try to have a "floor".
While the Nozick view about voluntary contribution to Wilt ->
nobody can complain when he is rich, is complelling, these
claims that spending money = free speech liberty in a political
context, so there should not be any limits on campaing spending
seems iffy and other areas where the state can do something
about buying influence [like say legacy considerations in
college admissions, buying organs etc.]. And if you do want to
tlk about tax policy, let's look at what people actually pay
rather than one number, the highest marginal tax rate.
\_ Although I agree 70% is way too high, there should definitely
be market controls to regulate the free market (not necessarily
taxes). I believe a "completely" free Market will eventually lead
to a caste society with a limited middle class. The gap in pay
between average workers and large company CEOs surpassed
300-to-1 in 2003, but in 1982, it was just 42-to-1. Annual pay was
$26,899 in 2003, up just 2.1% from 2002 according to the Bureau of
Labor Statistics. The average large company CEO received
compensation totaling $8.1 million in 2003, up 9.1% from the
previous year. The average worker took home $517 in their
weekly paycheck in 2003; the average large company CEO took
home $155,769 in their weekly pay.If the minimum wage had increased
as quickly as CEO pay since 1990, it would today be $15.71 per hour,
more than three times the current minimum wage of $5.15 an hour.
http://tinyurl.com/5tc4t
\_ Are you stupid? EVERYONE knows that the wealth gap is increasing
disproportionally esp. in the US and everyone knows that the
current Reagan-worshipping administration doesn't really give
a damn. You don't need to spend 10 million dollars on formal
inquiries to find out if Clinton had sex in the Whitehouse or
not; it's just common knowledge.
\_ Speaking of Clinton, the wage gap grew tremendously under
Clinton.
\- clinton didnt try to repeal the billionaire estate
preservation tax. however his pardon of marc rich does
give us an example of of the problems that can be avoided.
\_ Does it ever shrink? Did it grow more under Clinton or
under Bush?
\_ i believe more under Clinton, but he had a booming
economy for 7+ years.
\_ As wages have DROPPED under bush, this whole point
has a definite apples-to-oranges feel.
\_ This is simply not true. The poorest quintile's share
of national income grew under Clinton. Unless you are
talking about something else, like the average ratio\
of CEO pay to worker pay. What are you talking about?
talking about something else, like the average ratio
of CEO pay to worker pay. What are you talking about?
\_ References please
\_ google for: wage gap under clinton. here's an example:
http://www.ncpa.org/pd/economy/pdeco/dec97nnn.html
\_ Here are much better statistics:
http://www.bsos.umd.edu/socy/vanneman/socy441/trends/share1.html
Go look at the whole site. The top got richer,
but the poor did not get poorer. It was the middle
class that really took a hit under Clinton.
\_ That's an odd conclusion to reach from the data
there.
\_ In 1992, the bottom quintile took 4.2% of
the national income. In 2000, they took
4.3%. 4.3 is larger than 4.2, right?
\_ I was talking about the "middle class ..
took a hit" conclusion. The quintiles
moved, but the data are incomplete. Did
the second or fourth quintile grow?
\_ http://csua.org/u/bm0
The top quintile made a bunch more
and the bottom stayed the same. It
should be pretty easy to figure out
who is left and what happened to them.
\_ Look at the full data:
http://www.census.gov/hhes/income/histinc/f03.html
income increased for all levels
through the clintotn years. Bush
takes office and the bottom gets
taken, the middle slows and the
top keeps rising.
\_ I'm all for Bush, Cheney and Co having wild & raunchy
bestiality S&M orgies 24/7 in the White House if it will
make my stock portfolio go back up to 2000 levels when
Clinton was getting in trouble for getting his cock sucked.
\_ Well you could have done *better* than 2000 had you gotten
in/out of Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, and Enron. A lot of
Texans didn't get in/out of the tech era, but now they're
pretty happy with the current administration. Sucks 2 b u.
\_ I did fine actually, just no longer rich on paper. |
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