4/5     From Lockbox to Fiction, in four short years.
        http://csua.org/u/bl1
        \_ Social security is dying, and it's a costly idea. Why don't we just
           go back to the old Chinese way where you support your family
           members at all costs. And if you messed up and didn't have good
           loving educated children who can support you when you're old,
           it's all your fault. The Chinese way is a compromise between
           Libertarian's "every man for himself" and government imposed
           "All men get equal income" concept.
           \_ Let's bring back debtors prisons and indentured servitude while
              we're at it.
           \_ Because we are self-centered.  We won't do it unless we are
              forced to.
           \_ Wow.  I removed my reply because I thought you were trolling,
              but now I think you might be sincere:
              What's your support for "is dying"?  Social Security HAS worked
              for 7 decades, and as long as the current freaks don't fuck it
              up, it'll work for decades more.
              \_ It's dying because the projected population grow was off and
                 current actuarials have a hard time balancing it without
                 either cutting benefits or raising tax, and given the way
                 the current administration is going, they're just gonna kill it
                 \_ What's your source about projected population growth?
                    You're right about the current administration, but the
                    only people saying there are "difficult" actuarial problems
                    are ... the current administration!  You're buying a lie.
           \_ That doesn't solve anything. People who depend on SS now probably
              don't have wealthy kids either. And who wants to pay for old
              parents AND their kids at the same time? And what's "Chinese"
              about that system? Do you think westerners had social security
              for centuries or what? You're pretty dumb.
              \_ I think it's pretty obvious the Chinese are better at having
                 kids than most everyone else.
                 \_ Well whatever. The oldest system would be like what many
                    native american tribes were like, and other places. The
                    old people help cook, make clothes, care for kids etc.
                    while parents are off hunting and gathering and pillaging
                    other tribes. Trouble is old people don't want to work
                    anymore. Anyway SS isn't quite "government pays everyone"
                    since in theory you're paying into the system while you
                    work. Too bad they typically set it up as a pyramid scheme.
                    Like in Germany they don't have enough young workers to
                    pay the old people's services. But that's just their own
                    stupid fault for not taxing those old people enough while
                    they were young and driving Mercedes and taking their 6
                    week vacations and invading Poland.
                    \_ I thought invading Poland was their six week vacation.
              \_ old [Confusius] Chinese way is when you have respect for
                 the elderly and treat them the same way that you want your
                 children to treat you. That is, you and your wife live with
                 grandpas/grandmas and cook and eat together. And there is a
                 lot of interactions between different generations. It is a
                 world of intense interactions, cooperation, and assimilation.
                 However, much of that is lost in modernized, Westernized
                 China where people just want privacy, individualism and
                 independence. Kids no longer give a damn about old people.
                 They just want to play first person shooter games and
                 listen to hip-hop music filled with sex, guns, and profanity.
                 It's no longer about the family. It's all about me me me.
                 Sure, China is enjoying all the new material goods they're
                 getting, but spiritually, Confusius is dead.
                 \_ Confucius, not Confusius!
           \_ Doesn't China has some gigantic looming pension liability
              problem?
              \_ China after 1950 != old Chinese ways.
              \_ Nah ... in China, it's simple, you just let the poor
                 old people rot and fade away.  You get sick, you just
                 die.  No cost.  It's capitalism at it's rawest form.
              \_ Their biggest problem is going to be the male:female ratio.
           \_ There are so many minor ways to keep SS going forever.  You
              can always raise the retirement age and fix the problem.  I
              don't know why Bush keeps dissing the SS return.  3% return
              on top of inflation guaranteed isn't bad.  You can tax SS
              payments, you can raise or eliminate the SS tax cap.  You
              can increase SS taxes (like what they did in the 1980s).  Etc.
              It is NOT broken.
              \_ The easiest solution it to pull the $90K payroll limitation.
                 Don't need to change the retirement age, can claim that
                 everybody now pays an "equal" share (equal benefits? Ha!),
                 and it keeps SS "safe" for the foreseeable future.
                 \_ Sure. Tax the wealthy. That's always the solution,
                    isn't it? As long as people who make under $90K don't
                    have to share in the pain, right? It's not they will
                    \_ Uh.  Right now, those making over 90K aren't "sharing
                       the pain"... Dumbass.
                    benefit more from it or that they tend to rely more on
                    SS.
                    \_ Uh.  Right now, those making over 90K aren't "sharing
                       the pain"... Dumbass.
                       \_ Yes they are, dumbass! It's called the tax on
                          the first 90K that they make!
                          \_ how is taxing someone who makes $100K the same
                             amount as someone who makes $1M "sharing the
                             pain"?  -tom