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| 5/25 |
| 2005/3/31-4/1 [Recreation/Food/Alcohol, Recreation/Food] UID:37002 Activity:high |
3/31 So I heard this 'rumor' from someone that a bunch of Hispanic
people ate at a Chinese restaurant, and decided to make a run
for it and not pay. The restaurant stopped the last person and
called the police, but the police fined the restaurant and let
the person go because the restaurant does not have authority
to detain anyone. Does this sound right to you guys or am I
missing something here? What should the restaurant do? This
supposedly happened in Chicago recently.
\_ Bah. They're buying too many houses anyway. They
deserve to be dined-and-ditched.
\- The restaurant may be in the wrong, but that doesnt
mean the dine-n-dasher gets off scott free. Both
parties can be guilty/liable for different things.--psb
\_ So what's the proper course of action for
for the restaurant? Is this different from
shoplifting?
\- There is probably both a civil and criminal
claim they could persue. I dont know what they
should do. This is one of those stories where
you probably hear a bunch of upfront stuff
that gets people outraged but you never hear the
followup [like the $20million jury award which
ends up being whittled down to $1.2m]. --psb
\_ can't you citizens arrest them?
\_ This largely depends on local statutes
and the circumstances. Generally, skipping
out on your bill is a petty larceny (unless
you're a dining at the Ritz). A private party
generally does not have the right to restrain
someone they suspect of this low level of
crime. If this person was detained against
their will and that detention was wrongful,
the detained party has a false imprisonment
or false arrest claim to which there is no
defense.
The restaurant's best bet for recovery is
in small claims ct under a breach of contract
theory.
\- dont you think if you were in the shoes
of the restaurant you would be more
interested in the dasher beinf punished
than getting your $30. if the da office
will take it [broken window theory], that's
what i would do. --psb
\_ I agree that I would prefer a
criminal conviction, but a DA will
probably not take the case b/c
he has no interest in wasting a
bunch of time to get a conviction
or plea bargain for a crime that
carries w/ it a max penalty of
$500 or so.
It would be much easier to show
up in Small Claims w/ the bill
and the name of the dude you
detained and ask for damages for
breach of contract. This would
be a 15 min deal.
\- yes but then you have to rely
on the sheriff or whoever to
enforce the $30 collection.
i doubt these people really care
about having a judgement against
them. maybe if something like that
can affect their credit it would
be worth it. in the economic pale
this is a non-starter. i assume
DAs offices spend some amount of
resources on "broken window" crimes,
and if this becomes high profile
[i.e. race card] that could work
in your favor or against [vandalism
to your restaurant]. --psb
\_ Hmmm.. Interesting. My question
remains, how is this different from
shoplifting? You mean the store cannot
stop me from walking out with their
merchandise without paying too? I don't
think that's the case but I don't see
the difference here.
\_ Generally, in order for a merchant to
detain a person suspected of a crime,
the crime must have been committed in
their immediate presence (watching a
crime on video counts). If the crime
is not witnessed by the merchant,
then they can still detain you but
they risk a false arrest/imprisonment
suit.
As an example, say that you go to Fry's
and you pick up a copy of Chaos Theory
put it in your backpack and try to
walk out the front door. Unless they
saw it all on video or a clerk saw
you give yourself the 5 finger
discount, the highlighter dude can't
stop you from walking out of the
store w/o risking a possible false
arrest suit.
\_ So you're telling me that there's no
legal basis for all detainments made
by store detectives for shoplifting? I
know there was some discussion about this
2-3 years back. -John
\_ Thanks! I am gonna try that with a
PSP, isn't this country great! ;)
\_ Yup, this country is great for
lawyers.
\_ Before you do this, please
realize that if they choose
to detain you, they might
call the cops who can
arrest you for real. You
would not have an action
against the cops b/c they
acted under probable cause.
Note that the cops could
probably arrest you even
if you had proof (ie a
receipt) that no crime was
committed b/c it is not
the cops job to judge
the proof.
BTW does the PSP cost more
than $500? If so, suspicion
of swiping one would be a
Grand Larceny and you don't
want to go there.
\_ Yes and no. Police (in CA) aren't
empowered to arrest you for a
misdemeanor crime that they didn't
witness taking place. On the other
hand, if a citizen wishes to make
a citizen's arrest, they can sign
the 'citizen's arrest' form that the
peace officer has in his car. Of
course, if it turns out that the
accusation is false (and therefore a
false arrest) ALL the liability
falls on the person that signed the
form. If the cop is a good one,
he'll warn you if he thinks you're
making a mistake. So, be wary of
detaining someone, then signing
them into custody on the basis of a
citizen's arrest form -- if you
can't prove your case, you could
lose your shirt. -POC
\- look the law is more likely to
work in the case of serious
offenses and against people
\_ serious offenses? like, say,
felonies? felony !=
misdemeanor.
who are not "judgement proof"...
either because they have money,
they have informal or formal
reputations etc. this is even
more the case with "de minimus"
one shot economic stuff. what
ever happened with sloda'
LA vigilante who went after
the bus driver or whatever it
was. --psb
\_ reread, please. Police can
make an arrest for possible
felonies without being there
to witness the crime. it's
not very complicated. -POC
\- i'm talking about
pratical outcomes, not
what is theoretically
possible. after my car
was stolen the people
who stole it left a
time stamped receipt
for a jack in the box
drive thru where i am
sure they have a video
camera. i am also sure
the police have no interest
in pursuing this one i
got my car back. the above
was (clearly i thought)
a general comment on
minor minor crimes
[broken window]. --psb
\_ I'm sure BUD DAY has the authority to detain those damn dirty
wetback spics.
\_ Are you Chinese? Do you have any of idea of the effect of
Chinese food on Hispanics?
\_ Remember those Korean guys with rifles on top of the grocery
stores during the Rodney King riots, when it turned out that the
protection rackets would actually have to provide protection for
real? Other alternative is to bring their food into line with
mediocre Chinese food in a lot of places and make the remaining
check-skippers regret they ever ate there in the first place. The
regular college crowd will keep coming regardless, all that cold
pizza and stale beer makes you immune to whatever ChiCom biological
warfare agents they put in that shit. -John
\_ it's just MSG.
\_ Walgreens often encourages their managers to run shoplifters down
with their cars in the parking lot, and to engage them in highspeed
chase if they get away. dumb? yes. Illegal? almost certainly. But
I know a manager who was yelled at for *not* engaging in a car chase
after a shoplifter.
\_ Bah. They're buying too many houses anyway. They
deserve to be dined-and-ditched.
\- The restaurant may be in the wrong, but that doesnt
mean the dine-n-dasher gets off scott free. Both
parties can be guilty/liable for different things.--psb
\_ So what's the proper course of action for
for the restaurant? Is this different from
shoplifting?
\- There is probably both a civil and criminal
claim they could persue. I dont know what they
should do. This is one of those stories where
you probably hear a bunch of upfront stuff
that gets people outraged but you never hear the
followup [like the $20million jury award which
ends up being whittled down to $1.2m]. --psb
\_ can't you citizens arrest them?
\_ This largely depends on local statutes
and the circumstances. Generally, skipping
out on your bill is a petty larceny (unless
you're a dining at the Ritz). A private party
generally does not have the right to restrain
someone they suspect of this low level of
crime. If this person was detained against
their will and that detention was wrongful,
the detained party has a false imprisonment
or false arrest claim to which there is no
defense.
The restaurant's best bet for recovery is
in small claims ct under a breach of contract
theory.
\- dont you think if you were in the shoes
of the restaurant you would be more
interested in the dasher beinf punished
than getting your $30. if the da office
will take it [broken window theory], that's
what i would do. --psb
\_ I agree that I would prefer a
criminal conviction, but a DA will
probably not take the case b/c
he has no interest in wasting a
bunch of time to get a conviction
or plea bargain for a crime that
carries w/ it a max penalty of
$500 or so.
It would be much easier to show
up in Small Claims w/ the bill
and the name of the dude you
detained and ask for damages for
breach of contract. This would
be a 15 min deal.
\- yes but then you have to rely
on the sheriff or whoever to
enforce the $30 collection.
i doubt these people really care
about having a judgement against
them. maybe if something like that
can affect their credit it would
be worth it. in the economic pale
this is a non-starter. i assume
DAs offices spend some amount of
resources on "broken window" crimes,
and if this becomes high profile
[i.e. race card] that could work
in your favor or against [vandalism
to your restaurant]. --psb
\_ Hmmm.. Interesting. My question
remains, how is this different from
shoplifting? You mean the store cannot
stop me from walking out with their
merchandise without paying too? I don't
think that's the case but I don't see
the difference here.
\_ Generally, in order for a merchant to
detain a person suspected of a crime,
the crime must have been committed in
their immediate presence (watching a
crime on video counts). If the crime
is not witnessed by the merchant,
then they can still detain you but
they risk a false arrest/imprisonment
suit.
As an example, say that you go to Fry's
and you pick up a copy of Chaos Theory
put it in your backpack and try to
walk out the front door. Unless they
saw it all on video or a clerk saw
you give yourself the 5 finger
discount, the highlighter dude can't
stop you from walking out of the
store w/o risking a possible false
arrest suit.
\_ So you're telling me that there's no
legal basis for all detainments made
by store detectives for shoplifting? I
know there was some discussion about this
2-3 years back. -John
\_ If the Store Detectives did not
witness the shoplifting, then
the detention was probably not
valid. However, there are some
conditions under which there
might not have been any detention.
If the detective tells you to
stop you don't have to comply.
If he physically bars you from
leaving the store it can be a
false imprisonment. If he says
he is going to call the cops
if you leave, then that can
also be false imprisonment.
But if you can leave at any
time and you remain to clear
your name, then it is not
false imprisonment.
Also it can make a difference
if you are suspected of a
felony (grand larceny) vs
a misdemeanor (petty larceny).
\_ Thanks! I am gonna try that with a
PSP, isn't this country great! ;)
\_ Yup, this country is great for
lawyers.
\_ Before you do this, please
realize that if they choose
to detain you, they might
call the cops who can
arrest you for real. You
would not have an action
against the cops b/c they
acted under probable cause.
Note that the cops could
probably arrest you even
if you had proof (ie a
receipt) that no crime was
committed b/c it is not
the cops job to judge
the proof.
BTW does the PSP cost more
than $500? If so, suspicion
of swiping one would be a
Grand Larceny and you don't
want to go there.
\_ Yes and no. Police (in CA) aren't
empowered to arrest you for a
misdemeanor crime that they didn't
witness taking place. On the other
hand, if a citizen wishes to make
a citizen's arrest, they can sign
the 'citizen's arrest' form that the
peace officer has in his car. Of
course, if it turns out that the
accusation is false (and therefore a
false arrest) ALL the liability
falls on the person that signed the
form. If the cop is a good one,
he'll warn you if he thinks you're
making a mistake. So, be wary of
detaining someone, then signing
them into custody on the basis of a
citizen's arrest form -- if you
can't prove your case, you could
lose your shirt. -POC
\- look the law is more likely to
work in the case of serious
offenses and against people
\_ serious offenses? like, say,
felonies? felony !=
misdemeanor.
who are not "judgement proof"...
either because they have money,
they have informal or formal
reputations etc. this is even
more the case with "de minimus"
one shot economic stuff. what
ever happened with sloda'
LA vigilante who went after
the bus driver or whatever it
was. --psb
\_ reread, please. Police can
make an arrest for possible
felonies without being there
to witness the crime. it's
not very complicated. -POC
\- i'm talking about
pratical outcomes, not
what is theoretically
possible. after my car
was stolen the people
who stole it left a
time stamped receipt
for a jack in the box
drive thru where i am
sure they have a video
camera. i am also sure
the police have no interest
in pursuing this one i
got my car back. the above
was (clearly i thought)
a general comment on
minor minor crimes
[broken window]. --psb |
| 5/25 |
|