3/7     Ilyas, you really don't see the difference between lying about sex
                 Don't you think the people in the same car with her could
                 easily, so easily refute this?
        vs lying about a war? Do you consider shop lifting and murder
        to be the same as well? What would you think if Bush lied
        about sex and Clinton lied about war? Just think for a second.
        \_ Reading comprehension is your friend. -- ilyas
           \_ Reading comprehension is Ilyas Insult #4.
        \_ Lying about sex is much worse than lying about war. Everybody
           knows that.
        \_ Your whole statement is based on the "fact" that Bush
           lied. Some of us don't agree w/ that for various reasons.
           In contrast, everyone agrees that Clinton lied.
           In a legal theory, a shop lifter is considered less culpable
           that a murderer. On one moral level there is no difference
           btwn the two, both are willing to do something which is
                 \- Your brain has been classified as: small.
                    \_ Why? While one can say that shop lifiting
                       is in some ways just a property crime and
                       no one is really hurt, it is still a crime.
                       It is a violation of someone elses rights,
                       and in an absolute sense all such violations
                       are equally wrong.
           generally viewed as wrong (it is like Shaw haggling for
           price). On an even deeper moral level, it doesn't really
           matter what they do b/c the universe doesn't give a damn
           about the activities of a bunch of apes on a minor world.
           \_ This boggles the mind. If he didn't lie, he made a concerted
              effort to avoid knowing information that would have contra-
              dicted what he was saying, which is worse than lying.
              \_ He either saw the reports with the massively qualified
                 language regarding Iraq's weapons and knowingly stated
                 qualified intelligence as fact (lie), or he didn't even
                 read it and just read what was on the prompter (incompetence).
                 I'm not sure which is more frightening.
              \_ You do not know what intelligence he saw and whether
                 he willfully avoided seeing intelligence that would
                 not support the invasion plans. You are assuming
                 this. It is plausible that he was not presented w/
                 such evidence or that those presenting pro-war
                 evidence strongly discounted it. As I stated below,
                 I think that he was subjectively honest in his
                 belief that we needed to attack Iraq. In order
                 to "lie" he would have to have known your version
                 of the "truth" and then chosen to state otherwise.
           \_ So do you think that Dubya told the truth about WMD in Iraq
              in the leadup to the war?
              \_ I believe he was being subjectively honest. Whether or
                 not this subjective belief reasonably corresponds to
                 the actual state of affairs in Iraq is debatable. Many
                 times one has to make decisions based on limited,
                 partially incorrect, qualified, &c. info. You do the
                 best you can. I think that he did the best he could.
                 Would I have made the same choice? Maybe not. I can't
                 say for sure. I wasn't sitting in the Oval Office.
        \_ There is insufficient evidence (audio tape) to say that Dubya lied.
           There is sufficient evidence that he laid it all on Tenet, Director
           of Central Intelligence, who said WMDs in Iraq was a "slam dunk".
           As for Bubba, the sentence "I did not have sexual relations with
           that woman, Ms. Lewinsky" is not a lie.  Bubba has huge brain, and
           in his huge brain, believes oral sex != "sexual relations".
           Nevertheless, Bubba probably lied about the Lewinsky affair in a
           previous court appearance -- someone send me a URL, please.
           As for lies to Hillary, of course he lied.