| WIKI | FAQ | Tech FAQ | |
 http://csua.com/feed/ | |
| ||||||
| 5/24 |
| 2005/3/5-7 [Reference/Religion] UID:36539 Activity:high |
3/5 Looks like the big thread on Mormonism got smoked. I just want to
reiterate that if you're looking for non-biased research on the LDS
religion, goto http://www.equip.org They helped me dig up the complete
passages that make up the Pearl of Great Price, Book of Mormon, etc.
It's a tough cult to get out of once you're in it. If you're
doubting the religion and want to talk to someone who's left it after
being part of many generations of Mormons, please feel free to
email me at egwall@csua.berkeley.edu.
\_ Fuck your christian brainwash site. If you think that site is a
source of real information, it is you who need help getting out
of your jesus cult.
\_ You had to "dig up" passages of the Book of Mormon and such?
Ummm... they're availible completely for free here:
http://scriptures.lds.org
\_ That's what the LDS church wants others to see. Try digging
a little harder. -egwall
\_ Just an observation, but you should probably differentiate
between their official bible-type stuff and the various
"the truth behind mormonism" sites--it may be a sham, or at
least based on one, but if one of them says the online
bits you found match his scriptures, I'd probably take that
from the horse's mouth. -John
\_ It matches my printed LDS scriptures, and I routinely use it
to prep classes, etc. How's that tinfoil hat fitting? -emarkp
\_ Check this out http://www.irr.org/mit/jsfalpro.html -- documented
false prophecies from the founder of the Mormon church.
Enough said. The LDS church is a sham. Sad but true.
\_ Check this out: http://www.irr.org/yoga&christianity.html
-- documented evidence that your wingnut "institute"
declares that Christians should not do yoga. Sad but
true.
\_ You need to improve your reading comprehension (read
those "prophesies" carefully and look up the original
sources. Then note that your comment has nothing to do
with the above comment. Oh, and sign your name you
wimp. -emarkp
\_ This is hilarious. If it's so hard to get out of, why have I spent
so much time trying to figure out if people who are on the
membership rolls still live in the area? Hint: you're a crackpot.
-emarkp
\_ Whatever, and uh, thanks for the insult. -egwall
\_ Hey, you called my religion a 'cult'. Cry me a river. -emarkp
\_ Hee hee. From http://www.equip.org/free/CP0301.htm
"First of all, Mormons are taught that the Bible has been corrupted
through the years and is no longer reliable"
Yeah, we're not Bible literalists or believe the Bible is inerrant.
Oh no. Shoot me now. -emarkp
\_ Who is "we're"? -egwall
\_ We LDS. -emarkp
\_ Do you believe the Book of Mormon/Pearl of Great
Price/whatever is inerrant?
\_ Sorry, didn't see this until today (3/7). No. -emarkp
\_ So if you believe there are errors in it how do you
know what those are? What can you really believe and
who determines that?
\_ Sorry, there's no checklist. -emarkp
\_ Just curious then, because it seems one can pick
and choose what is accurate and what is a
mistake.
\_ There's been a /lot/ of work trying to figure out
which (of the many) manuscripts are best for the
Bible. That's simplified in the LDS case because
there were only two manuscripts for the Book of
Mormon (one by the scribe, which was copied to
take to the printer). I've never seen a flat-out
contradiction except where the Bible has poetic or
allegorical accounts. -emarkp
\_ So, the church is actually putting together
a "critical text" of the Book of Mormon (on copmuter) that will
include all the various versions of the Book of Mormon that have
existed and diff functions to show what has changed. There were a
number of minor differences in different versions. Chapter
divisions changed, as well as a lot of punctionation and some
grammar. JS edited the original printed version for grammatical
errors. The current version is the edited one. Furthermore, when
they found part of the original manuscipt, some copying errors
were discovered. Nothing important, just stuff like "as powerful
as the (s)word of the Lord." The 's' was omitted in the copy.
Anyway, none of the differences really changed the meaning of
anything, and none of this is "secret." -jrleek
\_ I would argue to cult of atheism is harder to get out of once
ensnared, and has done far more damage to vastly greater numbers
of people.
\_ Fuck you.
\_ Examples?
\_ Don't encourage the wanker. You know without having to hear
his drooling horseshit that he's refering to communism.
Rather than hear this particular red herring for the thousanth
time, better to keep the message simple: "fuck you" seems
right to me.
\_ There is nothing inherently atheist about communism. In
fact, the cult-of-personality phenomena of many
totalitarian regimes with a communist ideology have a
decidedly religious vibe to them. If anything, 'communism'
seeks to supplant religion while taking advantage of
religious feelings, whatever the ideology might say.
-- ilyas
\_ I agree with you 100%. *I* was not equating
communism with athiesm, I was just trying to guess what
mr. "cult of athiesm" was going to say if he got the
chance to start rambling. -pp
\_ this statement is so blatantly apocryphal and
historically ignorant it really doesn't
even deserve a serious response.
\_ Marx does not 'own' communism. Just because he said
something about masses and opium does not
automatically link religions, and the ideological
conception of economics/history that a card-carrying
communist might have. -- ilyas
\_ Do you know anything about the Russian and Spanish
civil wars, for example?
\_ Gee, why would I know something about the
Russian civil war? Next thing you know you
might accuse me of knowing Russian. -- ilyas
\_ But don't accuse him of _being_ Russian,
he might ilyas the motd!
\_ Omg! Hi Rob!
\_ nope, I haven't posted much in awhile.
Better work on your scripts. -meyers
\_ don't you speak/read/write Russian?
\_ Someone's sarcasm detector is busted.
\_ and what makes you think you have a
monopoly on slavic genes?
\_ I think my argument is buttressed by these manifestations
of your psychoses.
\_ How do you know the 's' was omitted and the word wasn't 'word'?
\_ As emarkp stated, there were 2 'original' Book of
Mormon manuscripts. The real original, which was written by
a number of different scribes as JS dictated, and a copy,
which was sent to the printer. The orginal had been lost,
but part was recovered. I understand about half it had
deteriorated. Anyway, the phrase in question appears
multiple times in the Book or Mormon, all of which say
'sword,' save the one instance. Upon examination of the
original manuscript, it was discovered that the scribe that
wrote that portion of the manuscript wrote funny 's's. In
this case, the s had kind of merged with the following 'w,'
so it just looked like 1 'w.' It was easy to misread, and
the copying scribe had misread it. -jrleek |
| 5/24 |
|
| scriptures.lds.org The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day S aints 2000 by Intellectual Reserve, Inc. |
| www.irr.org/yoga&christianity.html Moses, Muhammad, and Jesus were all awfully clear on one point: there is only one true God, and that God is the One who created the universe and who revealed himself to Abraham. In the cover article for the March/April 2001 Yoga Journal, contributing editor Alan Reder argues that yoga can be practiced by Buddhists, Christ ians, Jews, and Muslims - and by implication, just about anyone else - w ithout any conflict with their religion. Yet the two major articles that precede Reder's piece illustrate in unmistakable terms that yoga, in th e usual sense employed in the magazine itself, is incorrigibly religious . Thurman: Yoga is for Reality, Man In his article "Reality Check," Robert Thurman explains rather clearly th e Eastern religious roots of yoga. Oddly, he claims that he went East in search of truth because Western civilization's "authorities all said yo u could not know reality" (67). He soon narrows the field of Western "au thorities" to the modern materialistic philosophy that views the mind as a mere function of the brain, a notion that implies that we really cann ot know ourselves. But of course - the same point has been made from the Christian side by C S Lewis and others. Materialism implies that all of our thoughts are the manifestation of material processes; Unfortunately, this observation undermines the Eastern monistic philosophy that Thurman favors as well, since in that tradition the concrete existence of the individual "I" is also denied. T he only philosophy that can deliver true knowledge of the self is a bibl ically based philosophy: human beings are concrete individuals with inhe rent meaning and value because God created them, and we can know ourselv es because God created us with that capacity in order to make it possibl e for us to know and love him. As John Calvin pointed out in the opening paragraph of his Institutes of the Christian Religion, we cannot truly know ourselves without also knowing God. According to Thurman, the "gods" were unable to deliver happiness, so hum an beings must attain it on their own (67, 68). This premise obviously i mplies a repudiation of the biblically based religions of Judaism and Ch ristianity, especially the latter, according to which our eternal happin ess is dependent entirely on the grace of God in Jesus Christ. Although Thurman sees some movement in the right direction in other tradi tions, it is in India that he locates the path to truth and reality. The civilization of India "created a science of the soul" in which the mind is viewed as determining a person's happiness or suffering. This is an experimental science in which the laboratory is the mind-body complex an d the "technology is yoga, the yoking of conscious attention to empirica l exploration, transformative discovery, and healing modification" (68). This is quintessential New Age thinking: reinterpreting Eastern religi ous rituals and practices as a science. Thurman acknowledges that most of the "inner scientists" (his name for th e gurus and other movers and shakers in the development of yoga) belonge d to a religious tradition, of which he names the Buddhist, Jain, and Hi ndu religions (68). The "inner scientist" on which he focuses is Patanja li, the Hindu guru who authored the Yoga Sutra (69). Thurman explains th at according to Patanjali, "Yoga is the actuality of our union with the absolute, the supreme reality of ourselves and everything, the blissful void, freedom, or what is called Absolute Glory (Brahman, nirvana), God (Ishvar), or Buddha, Reality Embodied (Dharmakaya), and many other names "(70). The rest of Thurman's article expands on this understanding of yo ga. Suffice it to say, he has set forth the religious significance of yo ga quite plainly. Life: You Are Your Own Yoga Teacher David Life runs the Jivamukti Yoga Center in New York City. In his articl e, Life tells about his guru's visit to New York. The religious role of the guru for Life is established immediately. Life tells us, "I pray to a picture of Pattabhi Jois every day," and he points out that the guru " backs up everything with Sanskrit scripture" (73). According to Life, Pa ttabhi Jois "pulsates with the auru of a true siddha, one who has acquir ed unusual powers through dedication to yoga practice and teaching for m ore than 70 years" (74). Heady stuff, and Life admits that being around his guru makes him nervous. Each day after class the guru's followers lined up to take turns bowing d own to Guruji, touching the guru's feet and then touching their own head s When one of Life's students expressed uneasiness about bowing down to the guru, Life told him, "Don't bow down to just a man ... instead bow down to your own Self that you recognize inside him. Then bowing down to him is no different than bowing down before your own higher nature" (76 ). The student complied, apparently deciding that he didn't have a probl em worshiping himself. After all, according to the pantheistic philosoph y he was taught, we are all one divine Self. While admittin g that some people left the religion of their childhood to pursue the pr omise of yoga, Reder points out that many people today are taking yoga w ith them to their church or synagogue. "In general," Reder says, "yoga is taught here in a way that strips away much of its Indian context" (81). This is true, but the Indian context t hat remains includes very specific religious elements. As Reder acknowle dges, "teacher and students" in yoga classes commonly greet each other w ith the Sanskrit "Namaste," meaning, "I honor the Divine within you." Ac cording to Reder, "Fundamentalist religious leaders of any major Western tradition would probably say that pursuing a God within subverts worshi p of God without" (81). No surprise that objections to mixing yoga with, say, Christianity, are attributed to the nameless bogeyman fundamentali sts. This is classic move Number One in the religious apologetics of the left these days. Classic move Number Two is to invoke the opinions of erudite scholars of religion who assure us that there's nothing to the views of those narrow -minded fundies. So Reder offers a choice comment from Huston Smith, aut hor of the recent book Why Religion Matters, and refers to the arguments for religious relativism mustered by Matthew Fox (One River, Many Wells ) and Jacob Needleman (A Little Book on Love). According to these schola rs, "all of the major religions at their deepest level offer alternate r outes to a common destination" (81). Translation: If you dig around long enough you can find pantheistic mystics in the annals of every major wo rld religion-somehow proving that all religions at their core are mystic al paths to discovering the divine in ourselves. Believe it or not, this is the kind of argument that passes for serious scholarship in religiou s studies these days. According to Reder, the world's religious institutions resist admitting t his mystical commonality with each other to protect their power (82). I almost fell of my chair when I read this old chestnut. The fact is that the Eastern religions actively promote the unity of all world religions. As for the Western religions, the Big Three all resist such a claim bec ause it is contrary to the explicit teaching of their founders and scrip tures. Moses, Muhammad, and Jesus were all awfully clear on one point: t here is only one true God, and that God is the One who created the unive rse and who revealed himself to Abraham If Judaism, Islam, and Christia nity give up this core conviction, they might as well disband and tell t heir members to go become Buddhists. Reder completely misconstrues the problem here as the narrow-minded unwil lingness of religious people to allow that God could be known by other n ames (84). Christians are very comfortable with the idea of God being known by many names-after all, the Bible use s many names for God, and encourages us to translate biblical names into their equivalents in other languages (eg, "God" instead of Elohim or Theos). I don't think, for example, that "Alan Re der" or "Rob Bowman" or even "Pattabhi Jois" are among God's names. Since the monotheistic religions are ... |
| www.equip.org/free/CP0301.htm Statement: CP0301 REACHING OUT TO MORMONS Are there some practical strategies for dealing with Mormonism? Harry L Ropp, a Christian author who, by the way, served as a missionary to Mormons, said that creating doubt in a Mormons mind is an effective way to overcome ingrained teachings which inhibit Mormons from accepting the gospel. Lets look at these teachings and consider some effective wa ys to deal with them. First of all, Mormons are taught that the Bible has been corrupted throug h the years and is no longer reliable. In response to such claims, show that the Bible has been copied and translated accurately, and that moder n scholarship has vindicated the reliability of Scripture. With the disc overy of the Dead Sea Scrolls in 1946, for example, texts were found tha t were about 1,000 years older than any previously-known Old Testament m anuscripts like the Masoretic Text. And when compared with the later tex ts, these writings proved to be virtually the same. After establishing the Bibles trustworthiness, show Mormons that they sho uld instead focus their doubts on the Mormon scriptures. Try to concentr ate on a single topic such as the nature of God and demonstrate the inco nsistencies among Mormon doctrines and scriptures. For instance, while M ormons teach that there is more than one god, the Book of Mormon is clea r in proclaiming that there is only one God. By pointing out the internal discrepancies which plague official Mormon t eaching and canonical writings, any subjective testimony that Mormons ma y offer concerning their scriptures becomes either minimized or nullifie d And once a vacuum has been created, it may then be filled with sound Christian doctrine, further emphasizing the unbiblical character of Morm on theology. At this stage, take care to define terms since Mormonism ha s attached its own set of meanings to biblical persons and concepts. When speaking with Mormons let us, above all, allow Gods Holy Spirit to d irect our attitudes, our words, and our actions. And remember, if you ne ed further information on the reliability of Scripture and the inconsist ency of Mormonism just write to CRI. FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CRI has a list of resources addressing Mormonism (DM050/$025). Among the materials available are Jerry and Marian Bodines manual Witnessing to th e Mormons (B111/$5) and Walter Martins four-tape series entitled How to Witness to Mormons (C027/$6). We also recommend Speaking the Truth in L ove to Mormons (Northwestern) by Mark Cares (B287/$12). For shipping and handling information, please cal l CRI or refer to our Resource Listing. To place a credit card order, ca ll toll-free (888) 7000-CRI. To receive a free copy of our Resource List ing, fax us at (714) 858-6111 or write us with your request at PO Box 7000, Rancho Santa Margarita, CA 92688-7000. |
| www.equip.org Be sure to listen to the broadcast on Tuesday and Wednesday, March 8th an d 9th, when Hank welcomes Paul Maier to the studio. They will be discuss ing Paul Maier's book, The Very First Easter. More News Dear Friend of CRI, It may seem that the opponents of Christianity have t hrown down the gauntlet, but Im looking forward to picking it up in a y ear that promises to be filled with controversy over the foundations of our faith and the ethics that ... Appeal Donations Memo from Hank: A bizarre error by the US Post Office has cost the Christian Research I nstitute and Bible Answer Man broadcast an unknown amount of income -- a t a time when we could least afford it. |
| www.irr.org/mit/jsfalpro.html Newest information on thi s site "And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LOR D hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if t he thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presump- tuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him." Deuteronomy 18:21-22 Failed Prophecies of Joseph Smith Copyright 1997 Institute for Religious Research. Joseph Smith bore many titles in his lifetime, Elder, Seer, President, Ma yor, even Lieutenant General, but he is probably best known as the Proph et. And prophesy he did, often with great passion, invoking the powers o f heaven and the name of God. What follows are seven prophecies of Josep h Smith, notable for their specificity and appeal to divine authority. T hese are taken from official Mormon sources either the Latter-day Sain t scriptures or the History of the Church (HC), a seven volume history p ublished under the authority of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon). Each are given in context and cited directly from the original source. Where they are known, subsequent historical events rele vant to the prophecy are noted. Prophecy # 1 The Coming of the Lord President Smith then stated that the meeting had been called, because Go d had commanded it; and it was made known to him by vision and by the H oly Spirit. it was the will of God that they should be ordained t o the ministry and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, fo r the coming of the Lord, which was nigh even fifty six years should wind up the scene. This prophecy was spoken by Joseph Smith in 1835, and recorded by Oliver Cowdery. Prophecy # 2 David W Patten to go on a mission Verily, thus saith the Lord: It is wisdom in my servant David W Patten, that he settle up all his business as soon as he possibly can, and mak e a disposition of his merchandise, that he may perform a mission unto me next spring, in company with others, even twelve including himself, to testify of my name and bear glad tidings unto the world. David W Patten died in October of 1838 and thus never went on a mission the following spring. Prophecy # 3 The United States Government to be overthrown in a few years I prophecy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United Stat es redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missour i and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years t he government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left for their wickedness in permitting the m urder of men, women and children, and the wholesale plunder and extermi nation of thousands of her citizens to go unpunished (History of the Ch urch, Vol. However, the United State s Government did not redress any of the wrongs committed against the Mor mons in Missouri, and now over 150 years later, the US Government stil l stands. Prophecy # 4 Congress to be broken up as a government While discussing the petition to Congress, I prophesied, by virtue of th e holy Priesthood vested in me, and in the name of the Lord Jesus Chris t, that, if Congress will not hear our petition and grant us protection , they shall be broken up as a government, and God shall damn them, and there shall be nothing left of them not even a grease spot. Yet, Congress was never broken up and continues to function to this day. It is interesting that the compilers of History of the Chur ch, added an editorial note in an attempt to soften or explain this prop hecy. They state that: "This prediction doubtless has reference to the p arty in power; According to the note in HC, this means the Democratic Par ty, which was in control at the time. However, the prediction is that "C ongress shall be broken up as a government" and Congress is made up of r epresentatives from both parties. The Saints were making an appeal to th e General Government, not to the Democratic Party, a point made by a sum mary statement in the left margin beside this prophecy as it is recorded in HC. Prophecy #5 Finding Treasure in Salem, Massachusetts This prophecy is recorded in Doctrine & Covenants Section 111. The introd uction to this prophecy, found at the beginning of Section 111 states: Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Salem, Massachusett s, August 6, 1836. C hurch were heavily in debt due to their labors in the ministry. No treasure was ever discovered, nor did Salem ever fell into the hands o f the Mormons. Prophecy #6 Pestilence, Hail, Famine & Earthquake to Destroy the Wicked And now I am prepared to say by the authority of Jesus Christ, that not many years shall pass away before the United States shall present such a scene of bloodshed as has not a parallel in the history of our nation ; pestilence, hail, famine, and earthquake will sweep the wicked of thi s generation from off the face of the land, to open and prepare the way for the return of the lost tribes of Israel from the north country. Th e people of the Lord, those who have complied with the requirements of the new covenant, have already commenced gathering together to Zion, wh ich is in the state of Missouri; therefore I declare unto you the warni ng which the Lord has commanded to declare unto this generation, rememb ering that the eyes of my Maker are upon me, and that to him I am accou ntable for every word I say, wishing nothing worse to my fellow-men tha n their eternal salvation; therefore, "Fear God, and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment is come." Repent ye, repent ye, and embra ce the everlasting covenant and flee to Zion, before the overflowing sc ourge overtake you, for there are those now living upon the earth whose eyes shall not be closed in death until they see all these things, whi ch I have spoken, fulfilled (History of the Church, Vol. Such a widespread destruction of the wicked of that generation never occu rred. Prophecy # 7 Temple to be Built in Zion, Missouri This prophecy comes directly from Doctrine & Covenants Section 84, the in troduction of which states: Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, Sep tember 22 and 23, 1832. The Mormons were forced to flee Missouri due to persecution and a temple was never built on the "temple lot" in the lifetime of Joseph Smith or w ithin the generation of his contemporaries. Testing Prophetic Claims Over the last 200 years a number of people have claimed to be religious p rophets with special spiritual authority from God. These include Charles Taze Russell (Jehovahs Witnesses), Ellen G White (Seventh-day Adventi sts), Mary Baker Eddy (Christian Science), and Joseph Smith (Church of J esus Christ of Latter-day Saints). Each started an organization which cl aimed to be the one true Christian Church, each had unique teachings, an d each appealed to the Bible to some degree as their basis for spiritual authority. Yet, each "prophets" teachings contradict those of the othe rs. How can we test a person like Joseph Smith who claims to be a prophet? Jesus warned in Matthew 7:15 that many false prophets would come, and sev eral other places warn us about false prophets and spiritual deception ( 2 Corinthians 11:4-15; We should not be surprised, therefore, to disco ver that there are false prophets in the world today. The Bible, in Deuteronomy chapters 13 and 18, p rovides 2 tests for anyone claiming to be a prophet and speak for God. I f the person fails either test given by God, then we can know for sure t hey are a false prophet and we are to reject their teaching. Here we wil l focus on the test found in Deuteronomy 18:21-22 which reads as follows : And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LOR D hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LOR D hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him. Here the God of Israel tells his people how they can keep from being dece ived by someone claiming to be a prophet if even one of the prophets prophecies do not come true he is a ... |
| csua.berkeley.edu Science Undergraduate Association The Computer Science Undergraduate Association is dedicated to representing the undergraduate Computer Science student body and associates to the University of California at Berkeley, its representatives, and other related organizations; Our office is located in 343 Soda Hall, located at the corner of Hearst & LeRoy. May___| |May, 2004 | |_S___M___T___W___T___F___S_| | |1 | ||___| |2 |3 |4 |5 |6 |7 |8 | |___|___|___|___|___|___|___| |9 |10 |11 |12 |13 |14 |15 | |___|___|___|___|___|___|___| |16 |17 |18 |19 |20 |21 |22 | |___|___|___|___|___|___|___| |23 |24 |25 |26 |27 |28 |29 | |___|___|___|___|___|___|___| |30 |31 | | |___|___|| Calendar of Events Mon, May 3rd, (6:00 PM) General Meeting/Officer Elections Announcements: * CSUA t-shirts are now available in the office (343 Soda) for $12 each. Baby-doll cuts also available. View the design on front and back. The CSUA Mentoring Program is calling for new students to sign up to be mentored. Register to find out more information about this free program at the mentoring website. Members interested in mentoring should contact jhs as soon as possible. CSUA Officer Meetings: Politburo meetings for Spring 2004 are scheduled for every Monday at 6pm in 337 Soda Hall. New members always welcome. Help Sessions are being offered, open especially to new students. The topics, times, and locations are listed here. We just made a Costco run. If you don't know what this means, stop by 343 Soda to find out. The Constitution has been amended. Many thanks to AMD and the TDA Project. Secure remote logins require either SSH ( Java Client) or S/KEY ( Java Client). User Policy - The Rules * Frequently Asked Questions about the CSUA and Soda * CSUA Constitution * Message of the Day - Including downtime announcements * CSUA Library * CSUA Encyclopedia * Membership application form, in PDF, TeX, DVI, and Postscript. The Mentoring Program * Prospective LSCS Mailing List. |