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| 5/26 |
| 2005/3/4-5 [Reference/Religion] UID:36532 Activity:high |
3/4 LDS people: How would you respond to: "Are you saved?"
- wants to learn more about Mormonism.
\_ I guess it would depend on who's asking. If it was a baptist
preacher I would say, "Y-uh-esssss! I'm suh-AVED!."
Because, in the way they mean it, I am. If it was
someone asking a deeper question, like, what exactly that
means, I would probably explain. Really, that's a prety random
question. -jrleek
\_ To Evangelicals and other Christians, this is very important.
How are people Saved? In Mormonism, how are people "saved"?
\_ Mormons, in general, don't use the word "saved," although
it does apply. One becomes saved when one repents, is
baptized, and turns their life to God. They continue to
be saved as long as they are faithful and try to keep the
commandments. (That is, as long as they are making
efforts to progress towards becoming more like Christ.)
One can lose this status by turning away from God, either
purposely or through inaction. (Although, it is usually
not our place to judge who is saved and who isn't, that
is between one and God.) One obtains "salvation" after
death when they are judged. If they have kept their
covenants then they obtain salvation. At least, that's
how I understand the terms. emarkp might have more
to say. -jrleek
Addendum: Part of the reason there's a divergence in
terms betwen most Christians and Mormons on this is
because most Christian faiths think of becoming saved as
an event. Mormons think of it as a process. Our purpose
on earth is to become more like God, not just to get
into heaven. Although that's a nice bonus. :)
\_ If I thought my purpose in life was to be more like God, I
would definitely pursue a career in math.
\_ Heh, that's a good line. Thanks. -jrleek
\_ I was only half joking. Do you know any mormon
mathematicians? It seems logical enough to me.
I've always been an athiest, but the only time
I get to thinking a god might make sense is when
I'm studying higher math.
\_ Evangelicals would say that if you fully accept
Christ you are saved. Sounds like Mormons say that that
is not enough. Catholics say that fully accepting Christ
is not enough either.
\_ Yes, this and the trinity are the 2 two basic
elements that make up most "Mormons aren't
Christians" arguments. Although this particular one
is a very old argument, usually summed up as
"Faith vs. Works." Prodestants say Faith,
Catholics say works, Mormons say both. -jrleek
\_ Do you mean Protestant instead of Prodestant?
\_ That's an oversimplistic way of looking at it.
The more correct way is that Protestants say
one is saved by Faith, and the proof of Faith
is Good Works. So it's not an either/or proposition,
the fact that you are saved means that you will
do Good Works. I don't know about Catholics, but
AFAIK the concept of being saved in Catholicism
is much more ritualistic, i.e. one is saved by
acknowledging the rites such as confession.
\_ Those "rites" such as confession are the ones set
up by Jesus Christ himself. So those who
practice confessionare following what Jesus has
set up:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Confession.asp
\_ Bull-Shit. There is (at best) only indirect
evidence that Jesus Christ performed
confession to anyone. The only thing that
is semi-concrete is within the Pauline
letters. The concept of confession within
the Catholic church is purely a Romanesque
invention. If confession as we know it
was in fact part of JC's actions it sure
isn't contained in the four gospels.
It is definitely NOT up to the scale like
baptism or holy communion.
\_ If I ever start a religion, putting a hyphen
in the middle of the word "bullshit" will be
a sin.
\_ After his resurrection, Jesus passed on
his mission to forgive sins to his
ministers, telling them, "As the Father
has sent me, even so I send you. . . .
Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive
the sins of any, they are forgiven; if
you retain the sins of any, they are
retained" (John 20:21-22)
\_ The word we LDS use for "rites" is ordinances.
Baptism for instance. -emarkp
\_ Catholics say both: Faith and Works.
\_ To both of the above: Yeah, it was meant as
an oversimplification. I didn't want to go
into it. Sorry. -jrleek
\_ Well, there's that whole "Book of Mormon" thing.
I wonder how many Mormons used to be Protestant
or Catholic. Do Mormons tend to know those
doctrines? It seems not, because to most of the
rest of us Mormonism is VERY VERY different.
\_ Huh? A lot of Mormons used to be Protestant
or Catholic, the membersip is growing much
faster by conversion than by birth. As for
the second sentence, are you accusing me of
not knowing the doctrines, or most mormons?
I was just making a generality about the
class of "Mormons aren't Christians"
arguments. These are peculiar because they
have to concern fundemental differences
between the religions, in areas that are
agreed on my all other 'Christian' sects to
create the desired division. -jrleek
\_ This is an honest question. Converts can
be coming from Islam or agnostics or
whatever - not necessarily Catholics. Of
the ones who were Catholic and who knew
the doctrine (i.e. not Catholic in name
only) why would they switch to Mormonism?
I do not think most Mormons know the
doctrines of other Christian Churches
well, because if they did they would know
the differences are not small (for better
or for worse).
\_ I admit that I cannot help you
immediately on the Catholics turn
Mormon problem, since I was never
Catholic. Email me, and I can get
back to you with someone who was
later. (I know pleanty of converts
from Catholicism) Just for the
record, I never claimed the
differences were small, so I'm really
not sure what you're getting at.
At this point, please just
email me. -jrleek
\_ To quote "Oedipus the King":
"Don't think for a moment that you can call anybody
happy until you know for sure exactly what is going to
happen to him right up till the end--that is, until he
goes down into the grave without having tasted misery."
I think most LDS would say, "well, not yet". We tend to
think of salvation as the end product. Even after
accepting Christ as Savior, it is possible to "fall from
grace". Some evangelicals believe "once saved, always
saved", which doesn't make sense to me. -emarkp |
| 5/26 |
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| www.catholic.com/library/Confession.asp Click to learn more about this bestseller Confession Are all of our sinspast, present, and futureforgiven once and for all whe n we become Christians? Not according to the Bible or the early Church F athers. Scripture nowhere states that our future sins are forgiven; inst ead, it teaches us to pray, "And forgive us our debts, as we also have f orgiven our debtors" (Matt. The means by which God forgives sins after baptism is confession: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9). Minor or venial sins can be confessed directly to God, but for grave or mortal sins, which c rush the spiritual life out of the soul, God has instituted a different means for obtaining forgivenessthe sacrament known popularly as confessi on, penance, or reconciliation. This sacrament is rooted in the mission God gave to Christ in his capacit y as the Son of man on earth to go and forgive sins (cf. Thu s, the crowds who witnessed this new power "glorified God, who had given such authority to men" (Matt. After his re surrection, Jesus passed on his mission to forgive sins to his ministers , telling them, "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. if you retain the sins of any, they are retained" (John 20:2123). Since it is not possible to confess all of our many daily faults, we know that sacramental reconciliation is required only for grave or mortal si nsbut it is required, or Christ would not have commanded it. Over time, the forms in which the sacrament has been administered have ch anged. In the early Church, publicly known sins (such as apostasy) were often confessed openly in church, though private confession to a priest was always an option for privately committed sins. Still, confession was not just something done in silence to God alone, but something done "in church," as the Didache (AD 70) indicates. Penances also tended to be performed before rather than after absolution, and they were much more strict than those of today (ten years penance f or abortion, for example, was common in the early Church). But the basics of the sacrament have always been there, as the following quotations reveal. eats the bread or drinks the cup of th e Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and bl ood of the Lord" (1 Cor. The Didache "Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evi l conscience. flee from this work as being an exposure of themselves, or they put it off from day to day. I presume they are more mindful of modesty than of salvation, like those who contract a disease in the more shameful parts of the body and shun making themselves known to the physicians; Pour forth now that power wh ich comes from you, from your royal Spirit, which you gave to your belov ed Son, Jesus Christ, and which he bestowed upon his holy apostles . before their sins are expiated, before the y have made a confession of their crime, before their conscience has bee n purged in the ceremony and at the hand of the priest . body and blood, and with their hands and mouth they sin against the Lord more than when they denied him" (The Lapsed 15:13 (AD 251 ). "Of how much greater faith and salutary fear are they who . confess t heir sins to the priests of God in a straightforward manner and in sorro w, making an open declaration of conscience. inners may do penance for a set time, and according to the rules of d iscipline come to public confession, and by imposition of the hand of th e bishop and clergy receive the right of Communion. they are admitted to Com munion, and their name is presented; and while the penitence is not yet performed, confession is not yet made, the hands of the bishop and clerg y are not yet laid upon them, the Eucharist is given to them; And if anyone uncovers his wound before you, give him the remedy of repentance. And he that is ashamed to make known his weakness, encourage him so tha t he will not hide it from you. Basil the Great "It is necessary to confess our sins to those to whom the dispensation of Gods mysteries is entrusted. Those doing penance of old are found to ha ve done it before the saints. John Chrysostom "Priests have received a power which God has given neither to angels nor to archangels. It was said to them: Whatsoever you shall bind on earth s hall be bound in heaven; Priests, in contrast, can bind with a bond which pertains t o the soul itself and transcends the very heavens. Jerome "If the serpent, the devil, bites someone secretly, he infects that perso n with the venom of sin. And if the one who has been bitten keeps silenc e and does not do penance, and does not want to confess his wound . Augustine "When you shall have been baptized, keep to a good life in the commandmen ts of God so that you may preserve your baptism to the very end. I do no t tell you that you will live here without sin, but they are venial sins which this life is never without. For light sins, without which we cannot live, prayer was instituted. But do not commit those sins on account of which you would have to be separated from the body of Christ. For those whom y ou see doing penance have committed crimes, either adultery or some othe r enormities. If their sins were lig ht, daily prayer would suffice to blot them out. NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors. Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004 IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827 permission to publish this work is hereby granted. Search Catholic Answers, 2020 Gillespie Way, El Cajon, CA 92020 USA Main: 619-387-7200 | Fax: 619-387-0042 US Orders: 888-291-8000 | Non-US Orders: 619-387-7200 Copyright 1979-2005 Catholic Answers. |