1/27    ilyas, as a libertarian (ie fuck government, help thyself)
        what do you think about the Chinese culture? For many centuries,
        the Chinese culture has had internal problems which it dealt
        with via means other than government solutions. For example,
        the core of the Chinese culture is a family, where one
        gets financial support (family=business) as well as retirement
        plans (parents always live in the same household), food
        (family cooks/eats same food together), etc. This is a cycle
        of course, where young men know that they have to be a
        productive members of society so that they could raise good
        families so that their children would take care of them in the
        future.
        \_ Let me ask you this, what do Chinese people think about their
           history and culture (the totalitarian/collectivist, or if you
           prefer a more positive word, communal bits)? -- ilyas
           \_ I am not sure I agree that "collectivist" and "communal"
              should be applied to Chinese history and culture,
              at least not until the founding of the PRC.  Where did
              you get the idea?
              \_ I think there are strong communal elements in Chinese
                 culture itself (as well as Russian culture), which is why
                 I think communism was able to take hold there. -- ilyas
                 \_ what communal elements, pray tell us?
           \_ it was doing pretty well, IMHO until the white men brought over
              'things' that changed people's mentality and ultimately
              destabilized the country.
                \_ If you call millions dying every once in a while
                   "pretty well".
                        \_ relative to Europe in the Dark Ages, YES.
                           \_ Well that's not a good time to compare. Europe
                              was doing really well until the damn Jews
                              fucked it up with their religion.
                              Anyway your example of the Chinese family unit
                              isn't very good. Most other cultures had to rely
                              on that before modern times, and most still do
                              in a basic way. What other examples do you have
                              of Chinese non-government solutions?
                           \_ Not just the Dark Ages.  The Chinese Empire
                              fared reasonably well from around Roman times
                              till the 1700s.
              \_ what things? opium?
                \_ ideologies. physical goods. drugs. envy.
                        \_ There was no envy in China?
          \_ not sure I speak for most Chinese people but I'm pretty proud
             of the history from its beginning to about 200 years ago. Sure
             there were wars and disease and famine and <stick in whatever
             negative thing you can think of> but the empire flourished
             because of its hard working people who believe in family
             values, stability, education, hard work, self-reliance,
             family-reliance, and traditions.  In fact these are traits that
             many Chinese people still have, and will still honor for
             centuries to come.
                Now tell us what you think about the Chinese culture and
             if you see parallels in your ideology.
             \_ I am going to split your question into two.
                (1) I have a profound respect for Chinese culture, I think
                it contributed immensely to humanity as a whole.
                (2) I think a glib way to describe what I view as a chief ill
                in society is an 'unmeritocratic hierarchy.'  Humans need
                hierarchies to scale their activities, but all sorts of
                problems come up if these hierarchies don't let the cream
                rise to the top.  This can happen in business, government, and
                family.  This is what I think the problem is.  I don't know
                how to structure a society that avoids 'unmeritocracy' from
                creeping into naturally arising hierarchies a society must
                have.  I am not sure if this is a coherent answer to what you
                were asking. -- ilyas
                \_ In China, it's called the dynastic cycle.
             \_ don't forget the concubines
                \_ that's definitely good. definitely.          -liberal
                \_ that's evil, pure evil.                      -conservative