Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 35514
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2024/11/24 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
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2005/1/2 [Uncategorized] UID:35514 Activity:very high
1/2     US often does not deliver the money it pledges.
                http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/30/opinion/30thu2.html
                \-I believe the US gives more private charity than
                  Europe and the US also makes a lot of non money
                  contributions [security burden, say w.r.t. to
                  Korea, Taiwan, Japan, NATO etc]. I think these
                  aggregate numbers dont however capture some
                  distribution issues. For example the US has
                  given $200bn in aid to Israel alone [pop ~6m]
                  over the last 30yrs. If you take out Israel,
                  Egypt and Philippines, the total numbers are
                  pretty low. --psb
                  \_ give me a break.  We were "protecting" Phillipines,
                     but when Japanese invaded, we gave up that island
                     without putting up with a good fight.  Those "security"
                     burden are imposed by USA themselves for USA's own
                     interest.  To compare what US 7th fleet doing versus
                     donations from Red Cross is ridiculous.
                     \- nobody is calling this kind of thing humanitarian
                        aid, and some of it is certainly self-serving. however
                        this kind of "hegemonic stability" does have real
                        benefits. to take a less controversial example, take
                        the US GPS satellites. the US certainly spent more
                        resources in europe's backyard in the post-yugoslavia
                        conflict than a lot of the countries criticizing the
                        US. i think it's clear i'm not an apologist for
                        the us govt like some hacks here, but the simplitic
                        view on aid does miss some very relevant considerations.
                        --psb
                        \_ I called that American Imperalism.  And there are
                           plenty of downside to it.  You probably don't live
                           outside USA often, you have no idea what kind of
                           misdeed Amercan has done to other nations, from
                           as benign as bending trade rules to American
                           advantage (DMCA, currency manipulatn) to overthrown
                           of governments (Iran, Chili, Guatemala, and now,
                           Afganistan and Iraq); not to mention our barbaric
                           policy toward dozen Arab nations which spawn radical
                           Fundamental Islamic movement we are facing today.
                           It is hard to see the downside of it unless some
                           other country is dominating the world.  Given the
                           choice, I would much prefer three to five
                           dominating powers in the world than American
                           hegemony.    -kngharv
                  \_ Maybe this is off-topic, but no one really has a
                     right to complain. The fifth fleet and US military
                     has secured Middle East oil for 15 y.  World sea
                     commerce prospers because the US Navy, and less so
                     \- well, it's not only the USNavy ... for example the
                        indian navy does some anti-piracy stuff in the
                        indian ocean. not all the security issues are
                        state vs state, "high politics" and national
                        security, but yeah there are a lot of free-
                        riding and coat tail effects [like the us funded
                        tsunami monitoring program] but a lot of that is
                        pocket change. the US's real power is to shape
                        things in "convenient" directions ... like in
                        the area of IP regimes ... like the GE/Chakraborty
                        oil eating bacteria case that opened the door to
                        orgaism patents, but the place with soverignty
                        over where some useful organism is found in nature
                        doesnt necessarily have any rights [say amazon],
                        or the exceptions to free trade [steel, agri,
                        textiles] etc.
                        \_  India doesn't have a blue water navy, only the
                            US and less so Britain.  I would not call
                            maintaining the US Navy and enforcing the doctrine
                            of MAD during the Cold War or ABM now as
                            "pocket change".
                            \_ "ABM"? You mean anti-missile defense? You
                               have got to be fucking kidding me.  Yeah,
                               without the charity of the American tax payer,
                               those poor defense contractors might actually
                               have to build useful stuff that actually fucking
                               works.  Let us all take a moment to thank God
                               and the GOP for giving them this bounty of pork.
                               \_ TMD already functions... I'm not fucking
                                  kidding you.
                                  \_ wtf is TMD?  Total missile defense?
                                     I don't believe it, and if it existed,
                                     it would be instant missile crisis.
                                     Related question: Why does W trust the
                                     ABM but tests the kids every year to make
                                     sure?
                                     \_ TMD == The Mean Dude. He's a 280 lbs
                                        redneck who sits on a rock on Kodiak
                                        island with a billion dollar
                                        shotgun and hundred million dollar
                                        shells.  If he sees a missile with
                                        a North Korean flag on it go over head,
                                        he takes long pull from his flask of
                                        hundred million dollar moonshine and
                                        blasts away.  TMD has an over 75%
                                        success rate against all road sign
                                        test targets.
                            \- there are problems the US doesnt consider of
                               interest and the dont devote resources to it.
                               i am not saying the us's "hegemony" doesnt
                               have widespread benefits. i gave a specific
                               example of "regional maritime policing". i didnt
                               say they have a global projection capability
                               and i am not sure why it is important to decide
                               whether it is a "blue water fleet" or not. --psb
                     the British, secures the high seas.  No one else
                     has a blue water navy.  And don't overlook the paltry
                     contribution of a few trillion during the Cold
                     War.
                \_ People took it for granted, but if the US had not
                   wiped out the aborigines, the world would have been
                   under the tyranny of the indians.  There would be no silicon
                   implant nor viagra.  The whole world benefited from US!!!
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