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| 2004/12/17-19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:35342 Activity:high |
12/17 For the person who didn't believe me on the armor production,
do a google news search for "Armor Holdings", the company that
supplies the armoring for those vehicles. After Rummy said his
"It's a matter of physics", they came out and said "We can boost
production by 22% with no extra investment, but we haven't heard
anything from the military about doing so." Fuck you. You're
apologizing for people who truly do not support our troups.
\_ Uhm, if you knew anything armor you'd realize that you typically
don't get something for nothing. Sure, you can put more armor
on a vehicle, but the vehicle gets heavier, uses more gas,
and is less manueverable. Anyway, the world isn't perfect,
neither is the U.S. Army. There are tradeoffs. Deal with it.
\_ Um, are you Rumsfeld? That was the biggest non-answer
on this thread.
\_ 1000 fatalities isn't enough to make the American public
care. How many people on here actually know someone
who died in Iraq?
\_ Again, fuck you. --scotsman (i know two.)
\_ with how many degrees of separation?
\_ Seriously. Fuck you.
\_ why do you hate America?
\_ I don't actually know any black people who have been
lynched either. Or Jews killed by the Nazis.
\_ I know people who have lost family members to the Nazis.
I would have to be pretty freakin old to actually know
someone who was killed before 1945.
\_ So you get the point then?
\_ That in 60 years no one will be left to remember
what a dumbass Bush was? We will have history books
to remind us. And oh, look! Their children will
still be around to remind people of the stupidity
of starting a war for no good reason:
http://csua.org/u/aex
\_ That's the point! You don't have to personally
know someone that was effected to care about it.
\_ I didn't believe YOUR ASSERTION dumbass. I still haven't seen any
sourcing for your claim. Do you believe everything everyone tells
you without question?
\_ What claim? Isn't it enough that Rumsfeld was pretty directly
grilled by a bunch of combat troops about why they're not
getting enough armor? With 1,000+ fatalities, you'd think the
military-industrial complex would go into overdrive. I don't
care if the war is right or wrong, it's being run by a bunch of
sad amateurs. -John
\_ John, don't be a fucking moron. ~1100 fatalities in 1.5 years
of combat is nothing. In order to achieve the same numbers
that we lost in 'Nam we'd have to fight for 50 years, five
times longer than 'Nam. 1100 fatalities equals about 1% of
our ground forces in Iraq. That's like a fucking unheard of
fatality rate for a war. If it WERE run by morons like JFK
and LBJ in 'Nam, we'd have 10000+ casualties by now.
\_ I wrote a long rant in response to this, but deleted it,
as it's pointless to clog the motd with basic historical
concepts. You can look it up in the archive if you want.
Upshot: You are completely off, your premises are wrong,
your Vietnam comparison is a straw man, and I encourage
you to go to the Cal ROTC office and ask any of their
(generally) very friendly military history instructors to
explain why you are wrong--they'll probably lay out more
eloquently and succinctly your fallacies. You're at Cal,
dialectical process and all that. And kindly have the
courtesy to sign your name if you insult me. -John
\_ 'sad amateurs'? I think you mean 'politicians'
\_ Wolfowitz has never been elected, and Rumsfeld was last in
office in '69. They're the NeoCon version of Ivory Tower
professors, and their experiment has resulted in the
the current Mess-O'Potamia.
\_ But that's kind of my point-o-potamia, isn't it?
\_ If you're making some comparison between the two,
I'd agree. If you're saying they're not sad
amateurs, I'd have to ask you to step outside for
reeducation by fisticuffs.
\_ What part of SEARCH ON FUCKING GOOGLE do you NOT UNDERSTAND. It's
been reported by the entire media. Fuck you.
\_ I did a search, first few links I clicked on didn't have any
info. Do you understand the difference between SEARCH ON
GOOGLE and a fucking source you dumbfuck?!?
\_ Boy, you're angry. Read below. -John
\_ I'm irritated when someone makes an inflammatory claim
and backs it up with "stfw". My answer is a big fat
FUCK YOU. If you don't think it's worth your time to
source your claims, it's not worth mine to take them
seriously.
\_ Sourced below. Put up or shut up.
\_ I'm annoyed with both of you. Yeah, he should've
put up a link, but you should have looked harder.
Two wrongs don't make a right, even on the motd.
\_ God, you're both lazy pricks. Here's a recent Bloomberg article:
http://csua.org/u/ael Here's a Google Cache of the original
article: http://csua.org/u/aen
\_ You know, I'm having a hard time actually finding the full text for
Rumsfeld's response. I wonder why that is? You do know that the
vehicle supplier is only part of the chain, right?
\_ http://www.defense.gov/transcripts/2004/tr20041208-secdef1761.html
\_ Yes, the supplier is part of the chain. I would argue they
are the start of the chain. They were never asked to increase
production, even when they had told the pentagon they could.
That's a military leadership failure.
\_ No, that may mean that the rest of the chain can't handle
faster production.
\_ They are _the single provider_ of up-armored humvees
according to the article. They say they could increase
production immediately with no new investment. You're
being unreasonably apologistic.
\_ So you're saying there's no limit on transport and
deployment? Apparently the rest of the supply chain is
handled by Santa Claus.
\_ This is before transport. They didn't set anything
in motion. They failed.
\_ If the rest of the chain couldn't handle that
supply it would be pointless to "set anything
in motion" you moron. They'd just be humvees
sitting in a warehouse in the states.
\_ "It's a matter of production and capability of doing
it." SecDef apparently disagrees with you, soldier.
\_ This is called 'passing the buck'. It's like when your
boss asks you why something isn't done that should've
been done by now and you blame someone else, even though
you could've done your part of the job without that
person having done theirs. This company is trying to
avoid taking blame by saying 'We weren't specifically
asked!'. I am sure they were not going out of their way
to tell the military they could produce more for free.
\_ Uhh, why wouldn't they want to produce more? They
get paid by the piece sold you know.
\_ I guess you've never worked in/for government.
\_ "I've told the customer that and I stand ready to do that."
This is just not your day for reading, is it?
\_ What do you expect them to say? Don't take
everything at face value. I am not saying the
company should produce more when it is not asked
to, but they are painting it to make themselves
look better.
\_ To look better to whom? Apart from you, who's calling
them liars? Not the military, and they're the ones
who would gain most from being able to pin this
on the company. Face it, SecDef dropped the ball.
No amount of signed letters is going to fix that.
Also of note, Rumsfeld was asked basically the same question
8 months ago at a similar town-hall meeting. He bullshat on
them then, and did so again.
(Oops. It was general meyers who took the question.)
\_ Huh? Wha? meyers is in this thread? Uh oh -- time to ilyas
it.
\_ No, it was General Myers. -meyers, no relation
\_ Hi, you are both dipshits. Have a good weekend.
-- ilyas |
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| csua.org/u/aex -> story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=90&e=16&u=/ep/anotheriraqcasualtynearly900uskidslostaparentinwarscrippsfinds After studying casu alty reports and obituaries and accounts in hometown newspapers, and als o conducting family interviews, Scripps Howard News Service has identifi ed nearly 900 US children who have lost a parent in the war. More than 40 troops died without ever seeing their newly born children. Although precise comparable data is not available for other US conflict s, military experts told Scripps reporters Lisa Hoffman and Annette Rain ville that the number of American children left bereaved or made orphans by the Iraq war is unprecedented in scope. It represents, as Scripps put it in a graphic, about 18 large school buse s fully packed with kids. "This is a new state of affairs we have to confront," said Charles Moskos , a leading military sociologist and a Northwestern University professor . As much as we are concerned about veterans' programs, we now have to b e concerned about orphan programs. This is the first time we have crosse d this threshold." Among the parents who died, according to Scripps, were six female soldier s who had borne a total of 10 children, which Hoffman and Rainville term ed another historic first for females in the US military. This lengthy report was part of a package, distributed to papers and post ed at the Scripps Howard Web site, that included a separate story on the deceased mothers and last letters home from soldiers to children. One reason for the high rate of dead parents is the reliance by the US military on reserves, who tend to be older and have more children. com Find, compare and buy products in categories ranging from Sports Equipment to PC Laptops. Read product reviews and compare prices with tax and shipping from thousands of ... |
| csua.org/u/ael -> www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=aDrg28Q3a8Is&refer=us Armor Holdings Humvee Order Won't Increase Number of Vehicles Dec. The Army's plan is to complete 8,105 up-armored'' Humvees by March 2005 , unchanged from before the Dec. We're increasing the rate of production, not the total number of vehicl es,'' Hart said. More than half of the more than 1,200 US troops killed and more than 9, 000 wounded in Iraq have come from insurgent attacks on the vehicles wit h homemade bombs and rocket-propelled grenades. Some Humvees to which th e Army has added armor are vulnerable to bombs planted on roads because the underside is unarmored. Last week, Army Specialist Thomas Wilson, a soldier at Camp Buehring in K uwait, confronted US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld during a town meeting'' event. Why do we soldiers have to dig through local landfil ls for pieces of scrap metal and compromised ballistic glass to up-armor our vehicles,'' Wilson asked Rumsfeld on Dec. Members of both houses of Congress have said protecting soldiers should b e the military's highest priority. I think there was the ability to increase production significantly if t hey wanted to,'' said Senator Jack Reed, a Rhode Island Democrat and a m ember of the Senate Armed Services Committee, on Dec. The up-armored'' vehicles can stop armor-piercing 762- millimeter roun ds, provide protection from the blast of a 155- millimeter shell explodi ng overhead and could withstand a 12- pound mine detonation under the fr ont axle. The Army says 5,910 of the 8,105 newly manufactured, or up- armored'' H umvees have been delivered to Iraq and Kuwait. The Army says it wants 12,372 add-on armor kits for existing Humvees in I raq and Kuwait of which 9,135 have been delivered to the region. Armor Holdings has made 7,500 of the kits so far, Mecredy said last week. The armor kits provide less protection from bullets and blasts than the up-armored'' version direct from the factory, he said. He said he cou ldn't give details on the different level of protection offered by each. Do Whatever You Need' The clear message from our committee and the Senate Armed Services Comm ittee is to do whatever you need for our troops,'' Representative Jim Co oper, a Tennessee Democrat and member of the House Armed Services Commit tee, said on Dec. The uniformed military has always done a better job in estimating the threat than Rumsfeld. had declined to disclose financial terms of the Army's announcement. Fox didn't immediately return calls to his office on Dec. |
| csua.org/u/aen -> 216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:bNBIAXTVJgAJ:www.bloomberg.com/apps/news%3Fpid%3D10000103%26sid%3DaS2.XGeNzbaA%26refer%3Dus+Armor+Holdings+22+bloomberg&hl=en Armor Holdings Could Boost Humvee Armor Output 22% (Update5) Dec. We're prepared to build 50 to 100 vehicles more per month,'' Mecredy sa id in the telephone interview. Steady Progress' At the rate of more than 400 a month, the Army is making steady progres s,'' in improving production of the vehicles, Lieutenant General Steven Whitcomb, 3rd Army Command, said in a Pentagon video conference from Kuw ait. I've got enough metal, I've got enough folks and I've got enough time t o meet our schedule and ensure no wheeled vehicle goes into Iraq now tha t's not an armored vehicle,'' said Whitcomb, who is in charge of adding armor to vehicles destined for Iraq. We expect our troops to have the best possible equipment,'' Bush said i n a response to a reporter's question. If I were a soldier overseas wa nting to defend my country I'd want to ask the Secretary of Defense the same question, and that is are we getting the best'' equipment, he said. Trent Duffy, a spokesman for the White House, referred questions on Armor Holdings to the Pentagon. Secretary Rumsfeld has lost the last of his credibility. Our troops go to war with the Army that our nation's leaders provide,'' Dodd wrote. As a result of the increased output, Armor Hol dings has cut the price for the armor its supplies for the trucks to $58 ,000 per vehicle, from $72,000 per vehicle a year ago, Mecredy said. It's something like 400 a month are bei ng done,'' he said. It's a matter of production and capability of doing it,'' Rumsfeld, 72, said. Making the armor has to be coordinated with output of the actual trucks b y AM General LLC of South Bend, Indiana, Mecredy said. AM General spokes man Lee Woodward also said that truck output could also be increased. Not Close to Capacity' If they ordered more trucks, we'd build more trucks,'' Woodward said. The main reason there isn't enough armor is because the military has unde restimated its own needs, said Meghan Keck, spokeswoman for Senator Evan Bayh, an Indiana Democrat. Bayh wrote a letter to Rumsfeld in October c alling for a more accurate estimate of Humvee needs. If the Army would be up front about the number of Humvees needed, the c ompanies would be able to set their production accordingly to meet the n eed,'' Keck said in a phone interview. George Petropoulos came up with a design for armor cut from steel plates bought locally or imported and welded o n to Humvees. |
| www.defense.gov/transcripts/2004/tr20041208-secdef1761.html html or +1 (703) 428-0711 Presenter: Secretary of Defense Donald H Rumsfeld Wednesday, December 8, 2004 Secretary Rumsfeld Town Hall Meeting in Kuwait SEC. General Steve Whitcomb, thank you so much for your kind words. First, I want to say thank you to each of you, to your families for your superb service to our country. You are doing noble work, its vitally importan t work and your country is deeply grateful. Sixty three years ago today our nation declared wa r on an enemy that had launched a sneak attack on the United States and killed thousands of people. Some six decades later, America faces another g lobal conflict. And as it was in 1941, a new generation of Americans ha s been asked to come to freedoms defense. In recent times, weve witness ed the advance of freedom in nearly every region of the world. In the j oy of the reunited Germans dancing atop the crumbling Berlin Wall, after it was torn down. If you think about, in todays papers, the passionate debate thats taking place over free elections in Ukraine. And certainl y, in the determination of the women who braved violence and cast their ballots in Afghanistan in what was the first ever democratic presidentia l election in the countrys history. Think of it, yesterday, December 7^th, the inauguration of the first popu larly elected president in Afghans history. I was there to see that his toric event and Ill never forget it. And all of you who serve in our mi litary in all the coalition countries that assisted in Afghanistan will look back in five or ten or fifteen or twenty years and know that you we re a part of something enormously important. Twenty five million Afghan people liberated, voting, tears in their eyes, yesterday at the inaugur ation of Hamid Karzai. And as you consider your service in Iraq, think also of the tens of thousands of Iraqis who have volunteered to risk the ir lives, as you have to come to the defense of their newly liberated na tion a nation that was liberated by the coalition countries at the risk of their lives. These pivotal moments in history would not have been possible, had it not been for the determination and the daring of Americas founders. And th e generations of Americans who have advanced those freedoms at home and helped to nurture those freedoms abroad. Now that duty falls to you or more correctly, and I think importantly, you have each volunteered to ac cept that duty and I know that you are up to the task. Some of you are en ro ute out, some of you are en route in, some of you are en route back in f or the second time, I understand. Th ats the division that broke through the Siegfried Line in World War II a nd liberated Dachau. And I believe it was a division that, decades late r, came to the World Trade site within hours of the September 11^th atta cks. I understand you folks have up-armored some 6,000 ve hicles and we appreciate that a great deal. And two maneuver brigades f rom the guard and many others, as well Active, Guard, Reserve, even some sailors. Weve got some sailors and airmen and Marines and civilians here as pe rmanent party, all working with the same commitment. And for those near ing the end of your time in theater, know that youve done a superb job a nd I wish you the best, as you return home. And welcome to any of you w hove been here before, like the Red Legs of the 42^nd Division Artillery from Massachusetts. And Americas fortunate to have some old pros back in the field. You know , there are those who see the violence taking place in Iraq and there is violence, let there be no doubt. The beheadings, the slaughtering of i nnocent men, women, the bombings and they say we cant prevail. Think of a world just think of a world in which the butchers and the murderers are allowed to prevail. Think of what would happen if Iraq were to, again, be run by the extremists. On this day, 63 years ago, Franklin Roosevelt ended his address on Decemb er 8, 1941 to the Congress by vowing that no matter how long it may take , we will not only defend ourselves to the utmost, but will make it very certain that this form of treachery shall never again endanger us. As before, it falls to you and to our country to win this test of wills and to see it through t o victory. I ask you all to remember this in the difficult, in the tryi ng moments that youll face. Theres perhaps no greater calling in life t han doing what you are doing: serving on freedoms front lines. You know there are doubters and those who say it cant be done. Well, the re have always been doubters who have said it couldnt be done. People were aware that the Soviet Union had some 200,000 troops in Afghanistan and they lost after decades and thousands of lives . Its a democracy of 25 mil lion liberated Afghans and its a democracy, thanks to many of you here a nd all across the globe who didnt listen to the doubters and believed it was possible and understood the important fact that the great sweep of human history is for freedom and freedom is on our side. There is no finer legacy to bestow on future generations than being a par t of the worlds forward strategy for freedom and contributing to a safer and a more peaceful world and you are doing just that. I am confident that Ill have other chanc es to say this, but just know this for a fact there is nothing more impo rtant for you than to understand excuse me understand how deeply gratefu l the American people are to you for what you do, indeed, for what you v olunteer to do and I thank you from the bottom of my heart. I wish all of you could be right up here and look out at this fabulous array of soldiers and sailors and airmen, Marines. And we could save some tim e and I can answer some questions. And when a microphone person has a p erson with a question, why dont you put your hand up, so I can see you. My name is Staff Sergeant Donald Ross (sp) from B ravo Company 6 of the 7^th Signal Battalion. My question is with numerous troops deploying and numerous troops preparing to deploy, what is your plan to maintain a balance between units deploying overseas and units back at home to maintain an adequate fighting force in case o f possible terror attacks? And what we do is the chairma n of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the vice chairman and the chiefs revi ew all the deployments in what we call a tank, which is a room where the y meet in the Pentagon and they constantly are looking to see that the U nited States of America has the capability to fulfill the assigned missi ons that it has. And I can assure you that as troops are activated, ale rted, activated, deployed, demobilized as active forces are deployed and redeployed, all of that is looked at in the context of the several cont ingencies that conceivably could occur in the world that the United Stat es would have to be prepared for and that let there be no doubt, we have 14 million men and women in uniform in the active force. We have something like 865,000 in the Active Reserves, the Selective Rese rves. And we have something like 450,000 in the Individual Ready Reserv es. We have in this AOR Area of Responsibility today, something in the neighborhood of for the sake of argument 200,000. Thats 200,000 out of 14 million plus 600,000 and so well over 25 million people who we can call on at any given time. So you can be sure that we have the capabili ty we need. There are elements of the force, however, that have been st ressed and we read a lot about that and we hear a lot about that on tele vision and its a fact. And the reason some elements of the force have b een stressed is not because we have too few total forces, its because we have not had the right balance between the Active and Reserve. And some skill sets and some capabilities h ave been overused, by my characterization. That is to say theyve been u sed more than otherwise would have been necessary if wed had the proper balance. But no one in the world should think that because of the fact that we have some stresses in portions of the force and that because we have a large number 200,000 deployed to the CentCom Area of Responsibili ty, that our country is not capable of fulfilling any conceivable contin gency... |