11/23 Ok, right-wingers. Vang claims he was shot at first, and returned
fire as if his life were in danger. Given the repeated statements
of how eager you are to take the law into your own hands, how is
Vang's reaction any different than what you would have done?
\_ he is justified if true, he also assumed they had more
than one gun if they are hunters
\_ Actually in order to claim self-defense, he needs
to meet several requirements:
1. Did he create the situation?
2. Did he have an honest and actual belief that
there was a danger to his life?
3. Was his belief reasonable? [This test is tougher
than it looks]
4. Was the threat imminent?
5. Was his response appropriate?
If any of these questions are answered in the negative
then he doesn't get self defense. He may get imperfect
self defense, if he didn't create the situation, had
and honest and actual belief, but his belief was not
reasonable.
\_ Everyone agrees it is unreasonable and not totally
self-defense, but many people secretly wish they could
do what he did.
\_ And for that we have federal pound-me-in-the-ass
penitentiary.
\_ Quoth investigator report (via Reuters): "He fired back, hitting
the man who shot at him and then pursued the others, shooting them
and another couple who showed up later riding an all-terrain
vehicle..." It seems that whether or not the hunters fired the
first shot, Vang's claim to self-defense ended at some point
through the killings.
\_ Yeah, you think the rest of them wouldn't have "defended"
their dead friend if Vang just walked off?
\_ "...and then pursued the others, shooting them..."
\_ Let's try this again. A group of thugs shoots at you.
You decide to return fire and kill the one that shot
at you. What makes you think the others would not have
continued shooting at you?
\_ Uhh.. they were running away?
\_ Uhh.. they weren't all armed?
\_ Yes. The rest were hunting with their fists.
\_ Why don't you read the article?
\_ What article? Do I need to go to The Free
Republic and track it down?
\_ I'm just suggesting that maybe you should
read some articles about the subject we're
discussing, rather than just shooting your
mouth off.
\_ "shooting" my mouth off, eh? You are
a funny guy.
\_ Wow. According to the sheriff's report, there
was only one firearm amongst those that were shot.
Those lying sheriff bastards! Obviously it was
all a conspiracy! Well, that or you're a
blithering idiot.
\_ By the time the sheriff got there, the other
hunters had hidden the rest of their guns,
some of which might not have been legal to
own. It would make for a nicer story too,
if that damn gook shot and killed a bunch
of unarmed white christian males.
\_ The sheriff in a white southern county
is just going to lie to cover up for
high school drinking buddies. Especially
over some dink.
\_ I think my theory about you being a
blithering idiot is far more likely.
\_ Well, WI is south of Canada. - !pp
\_ OK, let's take this real slow now. The rest of the
hunters were running away, and Vang pursued them and
then shot them (as in it's kind of difficult to pursue
someone who's standing and fighting). Bye bye self-
defense.
\_ Depends on what happened. If they attacked
Vang and he fought back, then pursued them
b/c he was afraid they would come back and
kill him, he has a valid self defense argument.
Most juries in this country don't really care
if you over-react (see Gotez from NY in 86).
\_ maybe they just want to spread out into the woods
and then hunt Vang down. Also who knows
what firearms they carry in their ATV.
\_ Do you get your tin foil hats cheaper when you
join the tin foil hat of the month club?
\_ they fired the first shot. once that
happened you cannot assume those people
are sane.
\_ In this country, for a crime to be committed
you have to be able to prove intent (in
this case, only provable in the case of the
first guy since he's the only one that
shot). Ability (which is clearly lacking
since only one was armed when Vang started
shooting), and an attempt to commit a crime
(which is really fucking hard to prove if
they're all running away being chased by a
gun-toting maniac).
\_ Err ... we are arguing whether he is
acting in the belief that he needs
to defend himself, not whether a
crime has been committed. Remember
the Halloween case where a Japanese
exchange student was killed because
the shooter thought he was a threat?
\_ Yes and no. The case can be argued
for the first (alleged) shooter. But
in the absence of wrongdoing on the
part of the others, proving that he
had self-defense as a motivator is not
very likely to carry much water.
\_ Actually, the question is not whether
Vang believes he needs to defend
himself, but rather whether Vang can
*reasonably* believe he needs to
defend himself.
\_ White person shoots unarmed Asian:
reasonable.
Asian guy shoots armed White guy:
not reasonable.
Any questions?
\_ Yes. How does it feel
having your head up your
butt 24/7?
\_ Do you really think it will
be any other way? Even if
Vang really was justified
and if it was totally
self-defense, it won't
matter. The jury of his
peers will be white, and
they're just going to see
him as some slant-eyed
murderer.
\_ Yeah, ok. Does your hat use the heavy
foil or the light foil? I assume the
heavy foil offers better protection but the
light is more comfortable.
\_ but he was called names...
\_ Nice troll.
\_ Don't ilyas my thread.
\_ It should be easy to verify that the hunter fired a shot. Has
that been verified?
\_ How would that be easy to verify? Ask the dead witnesses?
\_ First, there is a live witness. Second, it's easy to tell
if a gun was fired. There should be a round or pellets or
something evident.
\_ I'm still trying to figure out how the presence of
a round or pellets will determine who shot first.
\_ I want to know if he fired *AT ALL*. Has this been
verified?
\_ The US Army trained its soldier well.
\_ California National Guard. Man, theyshould send this guy to
Iraq, instead of hunting deer and white folks, hunt Al Qaidans.
\_ Can't we just ignore facts and assume what probably happened:
Vang was ticked, the white people didn't shoot first but shot
off their mouths, then Vang killed all the white people.
\_ It was private property. So really the correct rendition
is he was trespassing, the may have impolitely asked him
to leave, he lost it and murdered them.
\_ How do you "politely" ask someone to leave after you've
shot at them? Vang was already on his way out. The
property was also adjacent to public property, and the
property line wasn't marked.
\_ Someone might have shot into the air. Like the old
"git off my property" hillbilly stereotype.
\_ So someone tells you to leave their private property,
and as you're calmly walking away trying to ignore
their racial slurs, one of them shoots their gun.
Vang, realistically, acted to defend himself.
\_ Let's say someone shot at Vang, Vang blew him away, other guys
started coming, Vang thought they were coming to nail him, Vang
nailed them first, all their guns were hidden, Vang didn't chase
anyone down. Anyways, I still believe the Vang got ticked and
anyone down. Anyways, I still believe that Vang got ticked and
shot everyone theory more.
\_ Hello armchair judges. Here's the fact. The outcome of the
Vang trial has nothing to do with evidence and facts. It has
everything to do with the jury and how the cops conducted
their search. The OJ trial proved just that.
\_ So is the jury all going to be Hmong and they'll find that the
sheriff made racist remarks about Hmong on tape and Vang will
go free and say he's looking for the real killer with every
deer he shewts?
\_ They were running away to get their guns, so Vang has to cut
them down before they got more guns and more people. Shit,
he killed one, but then they called for help and he sees a
another vehicles with a bunch of reinforcements, what is he
supposed to do? He's outnumbered at least 10 to 1, like
Rambo, the man.
\_ "Shot for vagrancy in Jerkwater, USA..."
\_ "But the man kept pushing Sir...They drew first blood,not me."
\_ Those other hunters should have joined a server with
Friendly Fire off!
\_ link:www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/news/10255877.htm?1c
for a MUCH MORE detailed police report
\_ Wow, this IS detailed. Thanks!
\_ How stupid can you get?
(1) 15 people in the hunting party but they only brought one
gun...are they going to share it or something?
They are either very stupid or lying.
(2) Though unarmed, they start name-calling
"chink,gook,fucking asian" to this guy holding
a semi-automatic rifle. Uh. That's really smart. Duh.
(3) Call more of your idiotic, unarmed ATV-riding friends
on the radio, so they can come by to escalate the situation
and make Vang even more scared and reactionary
Conclusion: white "hunters" deserved to die for being stupid
but Vang is the idiot who will have to go to jail for falling
into their stupid trap.
This is what happened: they see Vang on the platform, they call
up to him: "hey you fucking chink, get out of our tree. You
damn gooks are always trespassing". Then they radio their white
friends, tell them to come over immediately because "we caught
a chinaman on our property." Then the rest of the mob arrives,
surrounds Vang, starts screaming, yelling, cursing at
him saying: "fucking kick your ass, gook", "you fucking chink",
"get the fuck off our property before we fuck you up, chinaman"
Now Vang, being a Man, who has Pride, doesn't get off the
property "fast enough", so white-hunter fires a warning shot
at him. Vang, who is already pissed because (1) he didn't get to
hunt (2) they call him racial slurs (3) they have him outnumbered
(4) his pride is hurt (5) he's been wronged so many times in the
past and just swallowed his pride, and now (6) his life is in
real danger, lashes out and fires like a real soldier and hunter.
Then a 2nd wave of even more shitheads show up on ATVs which
just escalate the danger, he's outnumbered 15-to-1 by
racist whites, who are hunters who would reasonably have
guns, who have threatened him, so he defends himself
(defend in military/moral/emotional, but not legal-sense)
And he at least got some hunting done for the day.
\_ What the fuck?
\_ right.. the poor minority victim was called bad names. Too
bad there is no death penalty in Wi, the taxpayers will have
pay for housing this asshole. All of the facts - deer stand,
scope, number of shots, position of victims, ammunition,
etc. - indicate this guy flipped.
\_ Read the http://twincities.com link. Use http://bugmenot.com for password.
\_ We should let Ilya torture him to death. That'd teach him!
\_ Lucky this guy have a gun. Otherwise he would probably be
beaten to death like Vincent Chin.
\_ This guy lives the pro-gun dream, defending himself against
the odds with his rifle, and the motd right-wing turns on him.
It's shameful. |
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