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| 5/24 |
| 2004/11/19-20 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:34986 Activity:very high |
11/19 How I Began to Teach About the Vietnam War
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1284084/posts
\_ I love free republic guy. Do you have a family?
would you like to come over for Thanksgiving? - danh
\_ what do you think of the article?
\_ It is well-written, balanced, historically accurate, and
insightful. It does not do the author justice to have
his article reproduced among the steaming ill-informed
monkey-shitpile that is http://freerepublic.com -John
\_ So what kind of monkey-shitpile is soda wall, John?
\_ article was fine. I do not agree that the US had
any clear way of "winning". losing over 1/10 of their
population to US explosives didn't phase the Vietnamese
at all while they were defending their home turf. - danh
\_ No, no, no! You are wrong. The Nixon bombings were
effective and broke the stalemate at the Paris
Peace talks. If Watergate had not happened we may
still have had an effective cease fire. In addition,
the Tet offense was a disaster for the North, and they
didn't try an invasion like that again for many years.
It's a common myth that the VC were invincible. They
were not. We were constantly beating them, it's just
that we should've invaded the north. We couldn't because
of China. The U.S. didn't lose Vietnam, they abandoned it.
\_ The article was fundamentally flawed, in that it glossed
over the fact that the United States *did* support
illegitimate and unpopular regimes after the overthrow
of Diem.
\_ All of you are missing his fundumental thesis. ie "It
was a good idea, but we &*%)ed it up." All of you saying
"Yeah, but we did this wrong" should be agreeing with
him. Also, by extension, we shouldn't not help anyone
else just because we boned it up once.
\_ It was a bad idea, AND we $*%)ed it up.
See post below for why.
\_ I assume you mean the domino theory one? True, the
domino theory turned out to be incorrect, but I
don't think that made Vietnam a bad idea. Korea
didn't turn out perfect either, but I'm dang glad
we protected SK.
\_ Bad idea, good idea. Let's call it a mistake.
Also, Vietnam != Korea.
U.S. participation in Korea, Gulf War 1, WW2
were not mistakes.
\_ No, his fundamental thesis was that he had been
taught three incorrect things by the anti-war
movement: 1) that the gov't of SV was illegitimate,
2) that we had no legitimate reason for being in
Vietnam and 3) that we couldn't have won anyway.
"These are that there was never a legitimate
non-communist government in Saigon, that the
U.S. had no legitimate reason to be involved in
Vietnamese affairs, and that the U.S. could
not have won the war under any circumstances."
The article is bad because 1 and 3 are correct, imo,
and no serious person held #2. I am sure you can
find a few Communists and the like who believed
#2, but most Americans, even anti-war Americans,
believed that the US had a commitment to fight
Communism. They just didn't think Vietnam was
the right place to do it and they didn't like
the way we fought it. The whole line of argument
of his that Dinh was legitimate is a red herring,
since most of our support came after he was
deposed and we supported the coup that deposed
since most of our support for the wary came after he
was deposed and we supported the coup that deposed
him to boot!
\_ Ever hear of SEATO? Yea but you are right
NATO was a stupid idea too.
\_ The three "axioms" he mentioned I don't think are that important.
The key issue is the dominoes did not fall after we lost the
Vietnam War and expended significant national resources in doing so.
\_ Wrong, one significant domino did fall. Ever heard of Cambodia?
\_ American ideals and beliefs are one thing, but how many times
have US allowed its selfish self-interest to take precedence over
these. People around the world like democracy, freedom, rule of
law, etc., but they don't like US trying to bully other countries
for its selfish goals and interests. Just because US, as a
country, is one of the better representatives of these ideas, does
not mean its use of power abroad is just or in support of these
ideals. To assume so is the biggest hole in the argument the
author put forth.
\_ Apparently you need to get yourself a copy of "Weatlh of Nations"
and read it from cover to cover. It's amazing what a little
education can do for even the weakest of minds... But I doubt
you will so here's the capsule. A) All countries are after
their own self interest, that's just how it works. B) Having
a country like America look after its own self interest in the
world is not merely justified, it's necessary for not only
the continuation of America but life as we know it. C) If
it wasn't America it would be China or Russia. I know a
LOT of people who are MUCH happier with America at the reigns
rather than China or Russia. D) If people REALLY dislike
America so much why is everyone always trying to get in, yet
hardly anyone ever leaves? And if you think that American policy
is bad, just take a look at how other colonial powers treated
their subordinates. The Americans, by contrast, have been
exceedingly gracious. Yes, we are the Romans of our era, and
being as such we will need to recognize that we are indeed an
august nation and have certain responsibilities that others
do not have.
\_ "We are better than China and Russia. Hence you should
support us in all that we do!" What a stupid logic.
\_ America is not perfect, but it sure beats any and
all alternatives thus far conceived by mankind. |
| 5/24 |
|
| www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1284084/posts The Shrew How I began to teach about the Vietnam War Keith W Taylor Cornell University Michigan Quarterly Review. Ann Arbor: Fall 2004 In January of 1972, about six months after I returned from Vietnam and wa s discharged from the US Army, I began my graduate studies at the Univ ersity of Michigan, specializing in Vietnam-ese history. The immensity o f the war at that time was too much for me to press into an academic fra mework, and so I focused on ancient times, which was a comforting escape from the confusion of my personal experience of the war in Vietnam. Vietnam War, but I always dreaded doing so, because talking in public about the war usually produced in me a sen sation of nausea. It was 25 years before I began to understand that this nausea came from the dissonance between the interpretive grid I had acq uired for the war and what I felt in my heart. This essay is about how I began to teach about the war and how my ideas about the war changed to become my own. These are that there was never a legitimate non-communist government in Saigon, that the US had no l egitimate reason to be involved in Vietnamese affairs, and that the US could not have won the war under any circumstances. It took me many yea rs to step free of these axioms and to see them as ideological debris of the antiwar movement rather than as sustainable views supported by evid ence and logic. What enabled me to do this was that I finally came to te rms with my own experience. I received my BA in May 1968, and within two weeks of graduation I rece ived a notice from my draft board to report to the nearest induction cen ter for a physical examination. After the so-called Tet Offensive of tha t spring, the draft quotas were especially high, and many of us who expe cted our student deferments to last longer than the possibility of being drafted suddenly faced the war personally. One option was to find a way to fail the phy sical examination, and there were many ways to do that. I dismissed that immediately because it violated my sense of honor. Another option was t o apply for exemption as a "conscientious objector," which required one to argue that one's religious beliefs did not allow military service. I dismissed this because my religious beliefs were not of that kind. Another option was to go to jail, and I could see no point in doing that, for I did not believe that the war was at a moral level sufficiently lo w to require civil resistance. The war, as I understood it then, was not in itself an evil; if there was evil, I thought it was in how ineptly i t was being conducted and in the consequences of this ineptitude. At the age of seven, I had seen my brother-in-law return from Korea in a coffi n, and I had acquired a sense of civic duty to my country that was not d eterred by the vicissitudes of poor leadership. When I looked into mysel f, I knew that I would remain faithful to a code of personal honor attac hed to what I understood as the ideals of my country's form of governmen t rising above the confusions of political and military leadership. This became explicitly clear to me when I was interviewed by an army officer in the procedure to obtain a security clearance. He asked me what I tho ught of the war, and I recall telling him that I thought it made no sens e to try to defend South Vietnam so long as the border areas of Laos and Cambodia were conceded to the enemy. I had no quarrel with resisting th e spread of communist governments, but I could see no strategy being app lied that had prospects of success. Nevertheless, I remember telling the interviewer that my patriotism was stronger than my unhappiness about p oor leadership. I did not see why I should go to jail because I disagree d with how the war was being fought, particularly since I had no argumen t with the general purpose of the war itself. A fourth option was to go to Canada, which was at that time still being e ncouraged by the Canadian government. This was the option taken by my be st friend in 1967, and I gave it serious consideration because of him, e ven visiting the Canadian embassy and speaking with someone there who en couraged me to emigrate. But, for reasons I have already mentioned, I di d not find this option attractive. Even if I might have imagined some se lfish advantage in doing it, I nevertheless knew that such a choice, my own convictions aside, would bring much embarrassment and pain to my par ents, and I was not prepared to do that. The fifth option was to serve my country and to accept my civic duty as I had been taught to do, and this is what I did. But, probably from the c onceit of having obtained a certain measure of education and from the se nse of pride and the illusion of autonomy that arose from that conceit, I had a strong desire to retain as much control over my life as I could, and I did not like the feeling of powerlessness that came from the pros pect of simply being drafted and sent wherever to do whatever. So when a recruiter explained that instead of being drafted I could enlist and in doing so could choose my job assignment in the army, I decided to seize whatever vestige of control I might be able to exert over my life in th is situation and I applied to enter army intelligence. I spent the next two years in training: basic combat training, intelligen ce training, and Vietnamese language training. Until I was assigned to s tudy the Vietnamese language, I had entertained hopes of avoiding the wa r altogether. After all, I had friends and acquaintances who were assign ed to Alaska, Korea, Germany, and Panama. But once I was sent to study t he Vietnamese language, my only hope was that the war would be finished before my year of study was completed. It was not, and I was finally sen t to Vietnam in 1970 with the rank of buck sergeant. What I encountered in Vietnam was an army in process of demoralization. A fter public opinion turned against the war in 1968, the antiwar movement penetrated the army in Vietnam. All the stereotypical problems of drugs , racial conflict, atrocities, fragging, and insubordination were in evi dence and were affecting the morale of the army, and these were, at leas t as I understood it, related to the fact that, as a consequence of poor leadership, the country no longer supported the war, yet we were still being expected to fight it. Army leaders, both uniformed and civilian, r ealized the necessity to "redeploy" the army out of Vietnam as rapidly a s possible to prevent this spirit of disaffection from spreading to othe r commands around the world. Meanwhile, we were being asked to take our chance at being "the last man to die in Vietnam." Although I carried out my assignments with professionalism and sincerity, I was definitely affected by this spirit of disaffection. It seemed to me that the war was being lost and we were simply an expendable rear gua rd. I became suspicious of my superiors, sensing th at the debacle in which we were participating at least gave them a chanc e to advance their careers, while for the rest of us it was little more than a question of life or death. I was medevacked back to the US in 1 971 and emerged from the army dazed and disoriented. At the University o f Michigan I was surrounded by students and professors who espoused the three axioms mentioned above as if they were self-evident truths. I was angry about having sacrificed my youth to the incompetence of old men, a nd, to the extent that I thought about the war at all, I simply subscrib ed to the dogmas of the antiwar slogans then fashionable in Ann Arbor. For many years, my war experience remained like a huge undigested lump in the back of my mind. I began a caree r of teaching and writing about Vietnamese history, which for me meant b efore the twentieth century, and I imagined that in some way I was turni ng my unpleasant military experience into something positive by trying t o teach others about this place that was a country and not just a war. In the early 1990s, while living in Vietnam, I encountered many Vietnames e who, when confronted with an American who had been a soldier in their country and who could speak their language, expr... |
| freerepublic.com -> www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/browse Republic Log In | Register News/Activism Latest | Search | Topics | Home | Help News/Activism Threads Threads | Messages Search (by title: enter all relevant words or partial title) Search Austrians Praise Schwarzenegger in US Posted by Ernest_at_the_Beach On 05/13/2004 9:28:13 PM PDT with 1 comment The Las Vegas Sun ^ | May 13, 2004 at 11:56:36 PDT | GEORGE JAHN GRAZ, Austria (AP) - America, nein. Arnie, ja! When Austrians vent about the United States, the key word nowadays is "no" to things American, with only a few exceptions - including praise of Arnold Schwarzenegger. Arnie, that country has a real problem," says Robert Biber, echoing sentiments across Austria roused by images of US soldiers abusing Iraqi prisoners. Outrage as KISS player mouths off on Muslims Posted by veronica On 05/13/2004 9:25:48 PM PDT with 3 comments Sydney Morning Herald ^ | May 14, 2004 KISS bass player Gene Simmons has caused an uproar among Australia's Muslim community by launching an attack on Islamic culture while in Melbourne. The lizard-tongued rock god who is touring Australia with the world's most enduring glam rock band launched an attack on Muslim extremists during an interview on Melbourne's 3AW radio - including comments which were labelled inaccurate. Cold Turkey Posted by Rennes Templar On 05/13/2004 9:23:01 PM PDT In These Times ^ | May 10, 2004 | Kurt Vonnegut Many years ago, I was so innocent I still considered it possible that we could become the humane and reasonable America so many members of my generation used to dream of. We dreamed of such an America during the Great Depression, when there were no jobs. And then we fought and often died for that dream during the Second World War, when there was no peace. But I know now that there is not a chance in hell of Americas becoming humane and reasonable. Because power corrupts us, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. May, 2004 10amET | Fintan Dunne The family firm of beheaded American Nick Berg, was named by a conservative website in a list of 'enemies' of the Iraq occupation. That could explain his arrest by Iraqi police --a detention which fatally delayed his planned return from Iraq and may have led directly to his death. Nick Berg, 26 disappeared into incommunicado detention after his arrest by Iraqi police in March, 2004. He vanished again after his release 13 days later. Science & Space ^ | Thursday, May 13, 2004 Posted: 10:13 PM EDT (0213 GMT) | From Dave Santucci, CNN Firm is competing for the $10 million X Prize Aircraft designer Burt Rutan and his firm Scaled Composites took a giant leap early Thursday toward becoming the first private company to send a person into space. Scaled Composites, funded by Microsoft co-founder and billionaire Paul Allen, set a new civilian altitude record of 40 miles in a craft called SpaceShipOne during a test flight above California's Mojave Desert. Turning Shame Into Outrage Posted by neverdem On 05/13/2004 9:18:08 PM PDT with 1 comment LA Times ^ | May 13, 2004 | Charles Paul Freund Charles Paul Freund is a senior editor at Reason magazine. It's a tough call whether Abu Musab al-Zarqawi the Jordanian militant who is reportedly responsible for the videotaped butchery of Nicholas Berg is more stupid than he is brutal, or whether he is a bigger monster than he is a fool. Zarqawi's own nauseating videotape makes the case for his indescribable brutality and may have inadvertently delivered his enemy from its own demoralization. Official Says War Budget to Exceed $50B Posted by Ernest_at_the_Beach On 05/13/2004 9:14:08 PM PDT with 3 comments Yahoo via AP ^ | Thu May 13, 6:29 PM ET | ALAN FRAM, Associated Press Writer WASHINGTON - Wars in Iraq (news - web sites) and Afghanistan (news - web sites) will cost more than $50 billion next year, a top Defense Department official told Congress Thursday in the Bush administration's clearest description yet of the conflicts' price tags. Berg's Father Demands Answers From Bush (Free Republic mentioned) Posted by kristinn On 05/13/2004 9:13:32 PM PDT with 25 comments Duluth News Tribune ^ | Thursday, May 13, 2004 | Nicole Weisensee Egan Posted on Thu, May 13, 2004 Berg's father demands answers from Bush BY NICOLE WEISENSEE EGAN Knight Ridder Newspapers PHILADELPHIA - (KRT) - The day he buried his son, Nick Berg's father angrily lashed out at President Bush - and said he had a question for him: "I would like to ask him if it's true that al-Qaeda offered to trade my son's life for another person," Michael Berg told a small group of reporters early Thursday morning outside his West Chester home. One Last Card to Play Posted by Russian Sage On 05/13/2004 9:10:54 PM PDT Claremont Review of Books ^ | Posted March 18, 2004 | By Peter W Schramm One Last Card to Play A review of Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation: The End of Slavery in America, by Allen C Guelzo. Since 1865, the new york state library has been the proud owner of the original Preliminary Emancipation Proclamation. Media Maelstrom Posted by hope On 05/13/2004 9:06:15 PM PDT with 3 comments News Max ^ | 5-11-04 | John L Perry Media MaelstromJohn L PerryTuesday, May 11, 2004 This presidential election is in peril of being swallowed in a perfect media storm, more terrifying than Edgar Allen Poes A Descent Into the Maelstrom. With the inexorable force of the novelists oerpowering whirlpool that funnels nearly every object in its clutches down, down, down into certain doom, the perfect storm of television is sucking American democracy into oblivion. The way things are headed, television mass communications with print media puppy-trotting alongside its ankles are what will determine the outcome of the 2004 presidential election. Not the candidates. Bush Team to Rework Iraq Funding After Senate Balks Posted by Ernest_at_the_Beach On 05/13/2004 8:59:04 PM PDT with 7 comments Yahoo via AFP ^ | Thu May 13, 4:11 PM ET | Vicki Allen WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Bush administration officials said they would rework a plan for a $25 billion reserve fund for Iraq (news - web sites) operations after Republican and Democratic senators on Thursday deplored it as an effort to get "a blank check" without congressional oversight. STRATFOR: Geopolitical Diary: Friday, May 14, 2004 Posted by Axion On 05/13/2004 8:57:27 PM PDT STRATFOR ^ | May 14, 2004 0305 GMT Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Richard Myers went to Iraq on May 13. Three things are clear from this trip. First, the administration is committed to retaining Rumsfeld, or at least is committed to doing everything it can to salvage him. An open letter-- Berg dies while the Senate preens Posted by hatfieldmccoy On 05/13/2004 8:54:43 PM PDT with 16 comments vanity | 5-13-04 | hatfieldmccoy Senator Hagel, Senator Nelson, It has taken two days for me to have regained my composure to the point I could actually write you. You see, I've seen the unedited video of the Berg (an American) murder. Yes I watched the horrors of 9-11. I saw the Pearl (an American) murder video and the burning and gleeful dismemberment of the four security personnel (Americans). But the Berg video was staring straight into Hell. These things took their time. They used a dull knife and took 30 seconds to saw off this man's head. AM ET LONDON, May 13 (Reuters) - Britain's Daily Telegraph newspaper suspended the weekly column of Barbara Amiel-Black after its parent, Hollinger International, filed a lawsuit accusing her and her husband Conrad Black of looting the company. Martin Newland, the editor of Britain's top-selling broadsheet, "has decided to suspend the column until legal proceedings are completed," the paper said in a statement on Thursday. What Led Nick Berg to Iraq? Posted by dyno35 On 05/13/2004 8:48:10 PM PDT with 20 comments The Philadelphia Daily News ^ | May 13, 2004 | By William Bunch BERG'S JOURNEY SPARKED FBI PROBE AND OTHER STRANGE DETAILS HE WAS not like anyone else his friends from West Chester had ever known - an adventurous dreamer, a driven idealist, part philosopher and part inventor who was bored with college Record 26m divorce win 'a pyrrhic victory' (More Saudi kidnapping) Posted by Lan... |