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| 5/21 |
| 2004/11/8 [Reference/Religion] UID:34753 Activity:high |
11/7 The Founding Fathers and Deism
http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php?ResourceID=29
Of course Paine rejected Christianity in the later stages of
his life.
\_ Interesting, thanks.
\_ The author of the article gets the definition of "deist" completely
wrong. A deist is one who believes there is a (Christian) God, who
created the world, but left it alone after that. Most deists
believe in rational explanations for the miracles described in
the Bible.
The author would do much better just to use the term "agnostics",
"atheists", or separation of church-and-staters.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=deist&x=0&y=0
http://www.bartleby.com/61/44/D0104400.html
\_ Amusingly, you got the definition of 'deist' wrong also.
-- ilyas
\_ And the right definition is?
\_ I think the salient feature of Deism is the claim that
the existence of God can be rationally deduced. Such a
God may or may not be Christian and may or may not
have left the world alone after Creation. I notice
some web definitions support your 'left it alone'
thing, but to me that's a pretty arbitrary distinction
to make for an 'ism.' -- ilyas
\_ Uh, I think all three links support what I wrote, and
I do think what I wrote is more accurate than what
you added.
Most deists also speak from a Christian heritage.
I wouldn't say what I wrote was the "wrong" definition,
but rather that it CAN be independent of Christianity.
The point was that the author of the article got
it nearly completely wrong, whereas I essentially
got it right.
\_ Maybe you should ask deists, rather than dictionaries
what they think deism means (for instance http://deism.com).
The author of the article may have meant
'non-atheists.' -- ilyas
\_ Frankly, I value Wikipedia, Merriam-Webster, and
the American Heritage Dictionary more in this
case.
\_ Seriously though, if you don't think http://deism.com
is a credible source, ask someone on campus
who studies deism. Dictionaries are often
a lame source for technical definitions.
-- ilyas
\_ You also need to get off your FUCKING HIGH
HORSE, ilyas. What the fuck is "Amusingly,
you got [it wrong] also" and then waiting
for me to ask you what the right one is?
You know you come off as a dick?
\_ Ok, dictionary boy. Btw, did you know
your beloved wikipedia claims Cheney is
a neocon? Heh. Honestly, dictionaries
are great for capturing common use, but
they get technical terms wrong ALL THE
TIME, which isn't surprising if you
consider how dictionaries get written.
-- ilyas
My favorite recent example was a
dictionary defining a 'byte' to be a
'collection of bits.' -- ilyas
\_ Tell us about simpson's paradox ilyas
\_ Yup, I was wrong about it applying
in that case. Do you feel better
now? -- ilyas
\_ But Cheney's a member of The Project
for the New American Century. So,
how is he *not* a neo-con?
\_ Hmm, ilyas didn't respond, I guess
this means he was wrong.
\_ My problem with the term
'neocon' is that the test for
membership in this elite group
seems to be everchanging. I
was called a neocon on the motd
once. You seem to think
membership in PNAC is the same
as being a neocon. Someone
else might think it's some sort
of ex liberal jew hawk. Maybe
you should all get together and
decide what, if anything, this
word means. As for my wrongness,
you hereby have an official
pass, signed by me, which
says you are right, and I am
wrong in this, all previous,
and all subsequent arguments
we ever have. Maybe then you
can find another fish to trawl.
If both me, and Cheney are
neocons, then the term is
meaningless. -- ilyas
\_ Are you Chinese? Do you
understand the effect the
opium trade had on China?
\_ How can you have a "Christian" God who leaves the world
alone after creation? That doesn't jibe with, well, Christ.
\_ Right. Jefferson, a deist, did not believe in the divinity
of Jesus Christ. It's not really a "Christian" God, in this
sense, as you've noted.
\_ But he owned slaves! Are you Chinese? Do you understand
the effect the opium trade had on China? |
| 5/21 |
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| www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php?ResourceID=29 The Founding Fathers and Deism by David Barton (We receive numerous requests from across the country to answer various e ditorials and letters-to-the-editor. The subject is usually the religiou s persuasions of the Founding Fathers, and the standard assertion is tha t they were all deists. A recent letter claimed that most of the Founding Fathers were deists, and pointed to Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Paine, Hamilton, and Madison as proof. After making this charg e, the writer acknowledged the "voluminous writings" of the Founders, bu t it appears that she has not read those writings herself. However, this is no surprise since the U S Department of Education claims that only 5 percent of high schools graduates know how to examine primary source documentation. Interestingly, the claims in this recent letter to the editor are charact eristic of similar claims appearing in hundreds of letters to the editor across the nation. The standard assertion is that the Founders were dei sts. In dictionaries like Websters, Funk & Wagn alls, Century, and others, the terms "deist," "agnostic," and "atheist" appear as synonyms. Therefore, the range of a deist spans from those who believe there is no God, to those who believe in a distant, impersonal creator of the universe, to those who believe there is no way to know if God exists. Thomas Paine, in his d iscourse on "The Study of God," forcefully asserts that it is "the error of schools" to teach sciences without "reference to the Being who is au thor of them: for all the principles of science are of Divine origin." has been that of generating in the pu pils a species of atheism." Paine not only believed in God, he believed in a reality beyond the visible world. In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Penns ylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the necessity of a public relig ion . and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern." Consider also the fact that Franklin proposed a Bib lical inscription for the Seal of the United States; that he chose a New Testament verse for the motto of the Philadelphia Hospital; that he was one of the chief voices behind the establishment of a paid chaplain in Congress; and that when in 1787 when Franklin helped found the college w hich bore his name, it was dedicated as "a nursery of religion and learn ing" built "on Christ, the Corner-Stone." Franklin certainly doesn't fit the definition of a deist. For example, in his speech on May 12, 1779, he claimed that what children ne eded to learn "above all" was the "religion of Jesus Christ," and that t o learn this would make them "greater and happier than they already are" ; on May 2, 1778, he charged his soldiers at Valley Forge that "To the d istinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian"; and when he resigned hi s commission as commander-in-chief of the military on June 8, 1783, he r eminded the nation that "without a humble imitation" of "the Divine Auth or of our blessed religion" we "can never hope to be a happy nation." Wa shington's own adopted daughter declared of Washington that you might as well question his patriotism as to question his Christianity. James Bayard to form the Christian Constitutional Socie ty to help spread over the world the two things which Hamilton said made America great: Christianity, and a Constitution formed under Ch ristianity. Only Hamilton's death two months later thwarted his plan of starting a missionary society to promote Christian government. And at th e time he did face his death in his duel with Aaron Burr, Hamilton met a nd prayed with the Rev. Mason and Bishop Moore, wherein he reaffirmed to him his readiness to face God should he die, having declared to them "a lively faith in God's mercy through Christ, with a thankful remembrance of the death of Christ." At that time, he also partook of Holy Communio n with Bishop Moore. The reader, as do many others, claimed that Jefferson omitted all miracul ous events of Jesus from his "Bible." Rarely do those who make this clai m let Jefferson speak for himself. Jefferson own words explain that his intent for that book was not for it to be a "Bible," but rather for it t o be a primer for the Indians on the teachings of Christ (which is why J efferson titled that work, "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth"). What Jefferson did was to take the "red letter" portions of the New Test ament and publish these teachings in order to introduce the Indians to C hristian morality. And as President of the United States, Jefferson sign ed a treaty with the Kaskaskia tribe wherein he providedat the governmen t's expenseChristian missionaries to the Indians. In fact, Jefferson him self declared, "I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus." While many might question this claim, the fact rem ains that Jefferson called himself a Christian, not a deist. John Witherspoon, an d Madison's writings are replete with declarations of his faith in God a nd in Christ. In fact, for proof of this, one only need read his letter to Attorney General Bradford wherein Madison laments that public officia ls are not bold enough about their Christian faith in public and that pu blic officials should be "fervent advocates in the cause of Christ." And while Madison did allude to a "wall of separation," contemporary writer s frequently refuse to allow Madison to provide his own definition of th at "wall." According to Madison, the purpose of that "wall" was only to prevent Congress from passing a national law to establish a national rel igion. None of the Founders mentioned fit the definition of a deist. And as is t ypical with those who make this claim, they name only a handful of Found ers and then generalize the rest. This in itself is a mistake, for there are over two hundred Founders (fifty-five at the Constitutional Convent ion, ninety who framed the First Amendment and the Bill of Rights, and f ifty-six who signed the Declaration) and any generalization of the Found ers as deists is completely inaccurate. The reason that such critics never mention any other Founders is evident. For example, consider what must be explained away if the following sign ers of the Constitution were to be mentioned: Charles Pinckney and John Langdonfounders of the American Bible Society; Abraham Baldwina chaplain in the Revolution and considered the youngest theologian in America; Roger Sherman, William Samuel Johnson, John Dickinson, and Jacob Broomalso theological writers; James Wilson an d William Pattersonplaced on the Supreme Court by President George Washi ngton, they had prayer over juries in the U S Supreme Court room; And this does not even include the huge number of thoroughly evangelical Christians who signed the Declaration or who help ed frame the Bill of Rights. Any portrayal of any handful of Founders as deists is inaccurate. Perhaps critics shou ld spend more time reading the writings of the Founders to discover thei r religious beliefs for themselves rather than making such sweeping accu sations which are so easily disproven. |
| en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism edit 18th century popularity Deism was founded on the belief that the universe was created by a God wh o then made no further intervention in its affairs, often expressed by t he metaphor of the "Divine Watchmaker" who created a mechanism so perfec t as to be self-regulating. Perhaps deist ic thinkers were impressed by Newton's apparent demonstration that reaso n can finally settle problems that formerly thought to be permanently co ntroversial, and were thus hoped to settle religious questions permanent ly and scientifically by reason alone, without revelation. |
| www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=deist&x=0&y=0 Handheld Collegiate Now you can take the Eleventh Edition with you anywhere as Franklin's new Speaking Electronic Handheld! |
| www.bartleby.com/61/44/D0104400.html tically ADVERB The American Heritage^ Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Editio n Copyright 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. |
| deism.com Click Here to Subscribe to our New FREE Monthly Publication THINKonli ne! Remember: "Deists don't hate the superstitious, we just hate the superstition." |