11/4    Can anyone give me some tips on how to, where at, and how much it costs
        to train with guns in the state of California?  I want to try the most
        common pistols, rifles, shotguns, and semi-automatic assault rifles --
        probably one lesson a month in some new set of weapons.
        I feel this should not be strictly a hobby of the right.  Also, does
        anyone have a recommendation for an all-around, reliable semi-automatic
        assault rifle and pistol?  Thanks! -liberal (Yes, I'm totally serious.)
        \_ Best place to train http://www.internationaltactical.com (in LA)
           active LAPD SWAT officers are the instructor, cheap courses,
           most available to civilians as well. Most of the rest are all
           overpriced (4 figures+) with instructors who have never been in
           gunfight. Scott Reitz has been in 15 (he's a certified court
           consultant on use of force as well as consultant to many movies)
        \_ Y'all shuh ya safe shootun wit uz dum raid naik hiks?  Wez not two
           braight butt wez kin smail ah liberul fer milez!  Scuuze meh butt
           ah gotta gow fuck da pig!
        \_ For pistols, Beretta 92(9mm), USP9 (9mm), Smith and Wesson 5903
           (9mm) are all pretty decent weapons that are pretty simple to
           operate and comfortable to shoot.  When you've gotten comfortable
           with a 9mm, you may want to try more aggressive calibers like
           .40, 10mm, .45, etc.  As a side note, I believe that most
           competition weapons are either .22 (a very small bullet) or .45.
           Many of the .45's that I've shot have a _hair trigger_ so
           definitely be careful -- always ask the rangemaster about a new
           weapon that you've never used before.            -mice
           \_ .45 hair trigger? Try Sigs in single action mode next time.
              Find a friend - most ranges don't rent out Sigs. -jlee
              \_ Jackson Arms in South SF did at one point, give them a call.
              \_ My 1945 Remington-Rand most definitely does not have a hair
                 trigger.  -John
                 \_ My brother-in-law had an Argentinian 1911 which fired
                    with only a very light touch once it was cocked.  I've
                    never had a tighter group than I had with that.    -mice
                    \_ Well mine kicks like a mule and is all over the place,
                       but that's probably because I can't hit the side of
                       a barn.  -John
                       \_ John, I think your 1911 is broken.  I am almost
                          certain you have stronger hands than me, and I can
                          handle a 1911 just fine.  -- ilyas
                          \_ Ilya, re-read.  I am a miserable shot.  Period.
                             \_ No I meant about kicking.  I don't blame you
                                for shooting badly, that depends wildly on
                                the tolerances of the 1911.  The milspec ones
                                are so loose they rattle. -- ilyas
                       \_ Heh -- the kick wasn't so bad on that weapon.  I
                          played around with shooting it one handed, and the
                          kick was manageable.  As for barn hitting, well,
                          my claims about a tight group are rather relative
                          to my own (unimpressive) skill level.     -mice
              \_ Actually, I rather like the hair trigger -- I'm just pointing
                 out that it's best to ask the rangermaster for information
                 out that it's best to ask the rangemaster for information
                 about a weapon if it's the first time you've used a weapon
                 and you're still relatively new the hobby.    -mice
                 and you're still relatively new to the hobby.    -mice
              \_ cf "*Many* of the .45's" !=  "*All* of the .45's", etc.
                 \_ In my personal experience, hair-triggers were the
                    exception, not the rule, among .45's.  I remember
                    being rather surprised at how sensitive the trigger
                    was on that Argentinian when I shot it.  Revolvers, on
                    the other hand, when set to single action?  Hair.
                    Trigger. -geordan
                    \_ No, it's not the rule, and it wasn't my intention to
                       imply that.  Thanks for clarifying.        -mice
           \_ I actually started out with revolvers.  Less to worry about,
              just shove the bullets in and pull the trigger.
        \_ I'd report you to Ashcroft, but it looks like he's retiring.
        \_ To try out "stuff", there are loads of pistol ranges (STFW).  Many
           have different kinds of pistols for rent, so try out various
           calibers and see what fits the bill.  Concerning rifles, I
           remember going to a "federally designated shooting area" (basically
           a big open field full of hayseeds popping off ammo from picnic
           tables) near Chico; they were very friendly and informative about
           various guns.  To get the feel of a rifle, you can pick up a
           Russian SKS for about 50 bucks.  Go to a gun shop, preferably a
           well-lit, reputable looking one, and chat with the people there,
           you may be surprised at how helpful they are.  -John
           \- make sure you wear your united states of canada/jesusland
              tshirt. --psb
                \_ You'd be surprised.  A lot of the guys running shooting
                   ranges only care about one thing, do you support their
                   idea of the 2nd amednment.  Being at a gun range asking
                   for gun advice makes them like you, cause you probably do.
           \_ Thanks!  Two more questions:  About how much should I expect to
              spend at a gun range as a first-timer, and how long is it?
              \_ If you live in the Bay Area, there are a number of good ranges
                 or clubs that you can check out.  I've found that, for an
                 indoor pistol range, Target Masters West is very, very good.
                 The staff is knowledgeable and friendly, and selection of
                 rentable firearms is decent.  You'll need to bring a friend
                 if you don't bring your own firearm.  Cost?  Well, $8 per
                 hour for most weapons, $10 for a lane for an hour, plus ammo:
                 for a nine millimeter, figure about $8/50 rounds, for a
                 .40 or .45 closer to $12/50 rounds.  So, perhaps around $50
                 or so.                -mice
                 \_ And 50 rounds goes a lot faster than you'd think.  Ammo
                    is where the big costs.  Think about buying some beforehand
                    if you know what caliber you want to shoot. -aspo
              \_ Found this:  http://www.dragunov.net/bay_area_ranges.htm
                   I recommend taking someone along to show you the basics
                   and safety-type stuff if it's your first time.  If you're
                   serious, I think it's a good idea to take a gun safety
                   course (contact your local cops).  -John
                   \_ I agree.  Get someone who knows how to shoot to show
                      you the ropes.  You probably do know someone, ask
                      around and you may be surprised. -aspo
                   \_ I don't know anyone who already own guns, so can I learn
                      the basics from a safety class?  - not op
                        \_ "basics" = rtfm to find out how the safety works,
                           never ever point it at someone you don't intend to
                           shoot, including yourself, always assume a gun is
                           loaded, never keep a round in the chamber, buy a
                           trigger lock (ca. 25 bucks), use it, keep ammo and
                           guns locked up from children, know how much ammo
                           fits in a magazine, load it, point it, slowly
                           in/exhale (whatever works for you), squeeze your
                           hand like you would an orange, and occasionally it
                           will go bang and a piece of lead will fly out the
                           front real fast.  There is nothing to be scared of.
                           Just think of it like a big power tool.  Range
                           staff will usually show you what to do, don't be
                           afraid to tell them that you're completely new at
                           this.  -John
                 \_ I'm not scared of the guns so much as the ammo. I'm scared
                    that if I drop a bullet it might go off (is that possible?)
                    Or a "bad load" might explode (down the road, y'know). -!pp
                    \_ In order for a dropped bullet to go off, it would need to
                       fall, primer first, on something sturdy and sharp, in just
                       the right way.  Don't worry about it.  I don't think you
                       have to worry about modern ammo exploding on you either.
                       The biggest problem with ammo is some bullets simply not
                       firing (something wrong with the powder, etc), at which
                       point you have to clear out the resulting jam.  Honestly,
                       the biggest possibility of injury at a gun range, if you
                       are non-insane is firing a calibre that's a little too
                       big for you to handle, so the firearm injures you during
                       recoil (some people I know hurt their hands shooting
                       .44 mag revolvers, or their shoulders by not bracing
                       properly when shooting shotguns).  And by injury here I
                       mean 'ow, that smarts,' not 'ow, my bone is broken.'
                         -- ilyas
                    \_ common injuries w/ weapons that have slides, e.g.
                       most semi-automatics, is careless placement of non
                       trigger hand.  the slide moves back and can slice
                        \_ also watch the trigger hand, depending on the size
                           of the grip and placement of your hand...
                       of a nice chunk.  keep hand away or in a proper
                       supporting grip as they teach.
                           if you want to learn to shoot, practice patience
                       rather than seeing how many rounds you can squeeze
                       off in a session.  a good shooter i knew would go
                       to the range for a half hour to shoot 10 rounds
                       and then go home, as training.
                           you won't get a "bad load" unless you take
                       a hand-loaded round from some nutcase.