11/1 Gunman kills Dutch film director
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3974179.stm
\_ Maybe more European societies will start having to have serious
thoughts about essentially trying to handle an intractable, hostile
minority with kid gloves. The French already face this issue with
Algerians, and the Germans with Turks (mind, this is not to imply
that everyone from there is a big nasty, just that these are the
main immigrant population groups serving as a basis for
individuals who choose to identify themselves with them). Euros
historically have a serious guilt thing going when objectively
discussing integration & western values--I get the impression that
a lot of countries are just starting to come to terms that it's
not an issue you can just hope will go away. -John
\_ If things continue as they are by the end of this century,
Europe will no longer be Europe as we know it. Western culture
will be swamped by Middle Eastern and South Asian. I believe
this will be the first time in history that an entire people has
allowed itself to be wiped out without losing a war.
\_ Do you really think the Muslim minorities in Europe are
so nasty and dangerous? I'm not so sure. I certainly don't
see a general pattern of Muslim "hits" on prominant Euro
targets. The last 2 prominant murders in Europe I can think
of, Pym Fortun and that Swedish woman Lindt, were both pulled
of by whities. Personally, I think the Turkish "problem" is
already starting to right itself. Many Turks I encounter in
Germany speak perfect German and outside of a few reactionary
politicians, one doesn't really hear that much about Turks as
a problem. Yes, some do maintain their religious customs, but
they certainly don't seem to be trying to impose it on anyone
else.
\_ No, I don't think that at all--I thought I chose my wording
very carefully. The problem is that there are groups of
immigrants that come from backgrounds which are socio-
culturally very different from the secular humanism of
Western Europe. Many of them integrate very well, and bring
cool new ideas and changes with them; the problem is that
Europe, which doesn't have as good an experience with
integrating outsiders as the US, provides a tolerant
environment for individuals in those communities, who choose
not to integrate, to espouse and practice radical ideas.
I used Turks/Algerians as an example, but there are problems
with people from the Balkans, Eastern Europeans, etc. Not
as a group per se, but as individuals who take ideas from
these cultures which are opposed to western ones, and bring
them into confrontation with their host culture, viz. ethnic
ghettoes in most countries here, fertile recruiting grounds
for islamic radicals in European mosques, etc. As for trying
to impose "their" customs, this is mainly the case with
persons from these groups who might otherwise integrate
(think women who don't want to wear burqas) but a certain
degree of intolerance does spill over. -John
\_ Oh, I gotcha -- I think the misunderstanding was in the
use of the word minority, which I took to mean
specifically Muslims in this context, but you meant it
more generally. What you say is resonable, though I think
the "tolerance" shown by, at least Germany, towards
minority groups in terms of letting them run their own
affairs they way they want to, is actually a
manifestation of a form of intolerance. I get the feeling
that Western European countries feel they have a moral
obligation to accept certain immigrants (making up for
the past, etc.), but their heart isn't really into it,
which is why they leave these groups alone, without much
effort to help them acculturate. I could be wrong, though.
\_ Actually they try pretty hard. However, they don't
differentiate between who, for example, receives
welfare and for what, leading to tremendous abuse of
the system by people whose culture may have taught
them different permutations of right and wrong. The
result is that there's (I think) a slow move to
treating newcomers with less tolerance, and telling
them to adapt or piss off, which I think is more than
fair. One example of this is that voters here just
approved an initiative to deport illegal immigrants
who commit violent crimes. "?!?" -John
\_ I agree the governments in Europe try very hard,
but I was talking more about the "on the ground"
reaction of the people here. Of course, it's just
anecdotal, but I have the feeling that foreigners
here are treated more like outsiders (by the
populace) than they are in the US. Considering
that, I don't find it surprising that some don't
want to integrate. Plus, I think that the
governments need to get more sensible about what
they tolerate and what they don't tolerate. I
don't have a problem with the govn'ts saying,
"You need to behave this way," if it is something
sensible, but I don't see how, e.g., preventing
Muslims (and Jews) from wearing religous headgear
is going to help them integrate. They need to find
a way to let them integrate, while letting them
maintain some of their identity (if they chose to). |
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