10/23   What does everyone think about prop. 69 (The DNA database one).
        The arguments against in my Voter Info Guide sound kinda tin-foil
        hat, but I can see where some problems might exist.  For example,
        does anyone know what kind of testing they're planning on using?
        I doubt it would be full-sequencing, but the against argument
        hints at that.  (I think.)
        \_ Probably RFLP typing. Easy, fast, done in a couple of hours
           at most and doesn't require a high resolution gel. I can show
           you how to do one in a half day.
        \_ GATTACA.
        \_ CUAAUGU.
        \_ Think of it this way (disclaime--I don't like the idea):
           -all legal structures with the potential to screw you (the private
            citizen) either through a tyrannical government or through misuse
            by someone unscrupulous start life as something relatively
            harmless, sold to you as a measure to improve security ("so what
            do you have to hide?")  Such measures rarely stop at the first,
            innocent step used to sell it to the public
           -Governments almost never give up the ability to collect/maintain
            potentially misused information on you, even when it's proven that
            said information serves no purpose
           -Arguments against such measures are almost invariably made to look
            like crackpot straw men
           -Even if strict auditability and oversight laws and structures
            exist, do you trust them entirely?
           Note that I'm not making any specific arguments against this, just
           giving you something to generally think about.  You may also note
           that in European countries, where this has been done to some
           degree, the only supporting successes are generally individual,
           high profile cases (i.e. not a general reduction of crime) while I
           can point to a number of pretty hard-core fuckups resulting from
           DNA collection.  -John
           \_ As a data point, they used to say that UK's CCTV cameras would
              only be shown to well-trained security types and they'd never
              leak; now the "Real TV"-type shows are filled with tapes of
              couples making out with a voiceover of cops making fun of them.
           \_ Yes, we should be careful about this one. A DNA database of
              this sort could be pretty bad if the wrong hands get to it.
              Think insurance companies, think "no coverage," think corrupt
              gov't lab workers who are willing to sell the information.
              Hey, you have a tendency for CF? Well, the carrier is going
              to drop you when your wife gets pregnant. Scary stuff.
              Another reason why we should have state sponsored health
              care like virtually ever other civilized country in the
              world... -williamc
              \_ Have you ever been in a National Health hospital in the UK?
                 It's like that scene in the insurgents' bunker in the 2nd
                 Terminator movie.  -John
                 \_ I've been to County in LA. Same thing. -williamc
                    \_ Did a terminator bust in guns blazing?
              \_ You're assuming the DNA finger printing method they use
                 would reveal this.  If it's the same as the one they
                 used for crimes when I was in HS, (RFLP) it wouldn't.
                 Since so far all the counter arguments are based on it
                 being one of the (super expensive) full sequencing
                 methods, I was curious if anyone actually knew which type
                 they were using.  The second poster also thinks it's
                 probably RFLP.
                 \_ Sorry, I was the second poster. RFLP is commonly used
                    to reveal information like this, i.e. if you are
                    a carrier for a certain disease like CF. Probably
                    you need to do a review on RFLP and how it can
                    be used as a marker for diseases. - williamc
                    \_ That's true if you break on certain sequences.
                       They don't use those sequences in crime work.
                       (normally)
           \_ Maybe you could relate some of those horror stories.  So far
              the only ones I've heard have been "mixing up the DNA at the
              lab" which, to me, seems pretty isomorphic to mixing up the
              fingerprints at the office.  (Although a little harder to
              catch.)
                \_ There was a case in .ch where a group representing
                   health insurers accidentally was given access to a DB
                   of HIV patients' DNA (including their identities)--and this
                   country has very strict privacy laws.  There was also a
                   case in the UK of wrongful identification of a criminal
                   based on a DNAsample, even though the chances were
                   something like 1 in 2 million.  They've since switched to
                   using more identifiers, but the point holds.  These are
                   isolated flukes, but when they do occur, they give rise to
                   a similar problem to that of using PIN codes for credit
                   card auth instead of signatures--The technology's pretty
                   good, hence trusted, hence you have little-to-no chance of
                   non-repudiation IF something horrible goes wrong.  -John
        \_ My wife and I like 69.
           \_ So does yermom
              \_ menage trois!
                 \_ manage trolls!

You have new trolls.
                    \_ mangy trolls!
                 \_ "menage a trois", or actually "ménage à trois".
           \_ You sick!! -sexless sodan