10/18 For the guy who claimed that the majority of geeks lean left...
still waiting for the url backing that up. -- ilyas
\_ I don't think anyone has specifically surveyed "geeks," ilyas,
so you're probably not going to get an url from him. But I believe
there have been surveys showing that the more educated a person is,
the more likely they are to be center/left leaning. Geek doesn't
necessarily correlate with "more educated," I admit.
\_ Actually, I heard it's more of a bell shape -- the richest
and poorest tend to vote DNC, the middle tends to vote RNC.
Similarly, for education, high school dropouts and grad students
for DNC, the rest for RNC. -- ilyas
\_ I thought I said education, not income level, but whatever.
\_ Reading comprehension >>> you.a
\_ Reading comprehension >>> you
\_ I got what he said. I just don't know why he started
talking about income level, because that is not what
we were talking about.
\_ 2000 election
No HS degree: +20% Gore
HS degree: +1% Bush
Some college: +6% Bush
College grad: +6% Bush
Post-grad deg: +8% Gore
Just goes to show, a little education makes you smart enough
to watch O'Reilly and think you're smarter than those damn
tax-you-to-death, government-handout, eternal victim, take
no personal initiative / responsibility liberal elite.
\_ This left-right thing needs a lot more defining. There are
anti-abortionists who support gun control and pro-choicers who
oppose gay marriage. If you're talking pro-DNC or pro-RNC, I
think ilyas has answered well above.
\_ saved by the Jargon File
http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/politics.html
I have found much evidence to support the JF's claim that many
geeks (hackers, whatever) tend to be libertarian leaning. I
think framing this discusion in terms of right/left is really a
bad way to look at it right now in our current politcal climate
where even the repub pres is not really a conservative by
most definitions. - rory
\_ I ll buy that geeks tend to lean libertarian, because that
actually matches my (anecdotal) experience fairly closely.
-- ilyas
\_ Hey, if someone told me:
Liberal Democrat = more freedom, more government
Conservative Republican = less freedom, less government
Libertarian = more freedom, less government
... I'd go libertarian every time. It's not that complicated:
"Duh, hey, I'm a libertarian, I'm fucking 1337! Go away tax-and-
spend liberals, go away nazi pro-lifers."
The key criticism with libertarianism is that the U.S. is still
a two-party country, and well, there are a lot of libertarian
geeks, and who wants to hang out with the nerds?
\_ If Bush is anything to go by, Conservative Republican =
less freedom, more government.
\_ exactly my point. Bush is not a conservative Republican
by the traditional def.
\_ It seems that once the Republicans became the dominant
party, after years of playing the underdog, they realized
that they didn't hate this government stuff all as much
as they thought they did. Spending is much easier to
support when it benefits you directly.
\_ its easy to say you want to shrink govt when you
disagree w/ the people running it.
\_ THAT is the "key criticism" of libertarianism?
\_ Okay, let's just say "An important criticism".
Then you can tell me what the key one is.
\_ libertarianism appeals to nerds (esp mathematically
minded ones) because it is based on a supposedly
objective series of rules and says that, if left to
their own, these rules will naturally and justly
govern people. The key criticism of it is that these
rules are not as natural as people think... they are
based on societies and social order, etc. ie, people
say, "hands off, let the market regulate"... but
the fact is you cant have good markets w/out good
gov'ts. - rory
\_ I wonder sometimes where 'good governments' come
from. Lately, I've been leaning towards 'good
culture' as the wellspring of 'good
government.' -- ilyas
\_ why is that any easier to define?
\_ It's not. But I am not sure good government
can spontaneously happen if the culture is
not ready for it. Introducing a representative
republic in Dark Ages Europe would have done
no good. To respond to rory, you are thinking
of anarcho-capitalism (which I admit I find
appealing, I just don't see how it would work).
Libertarianism has inherent tensions because
it generally dislikes government but
acknowledges its necessity (i.e. it's not a
'terse' belief system like A-C). -- ilyas
\_ gawd, if libertarianism is this complicated, I can
understand why it's not popular. I would much prefer
it if it were described just as "more freedom, less
government". Otherwise I'd just settle with
calling myself a small-government Democrat or
personal-freedom Republican. (Yeah, silly, but not
as bad as objectivist Libertarian.)
\_ Can I still have the FDA, fire departments,
health inspections of restaurants, product
safety commissions, etc., or will I just have
to gamble with my life and hope for the best
anytime I eat something, buy a new product,
buy prescription drugs, or need emergency
services?
\_ It will be just like ebay ratings! You go with
the ones with good feedback. Sure, sometimes
someone decides to screw over a few thousand
or million people and then move to Turkey, but
think of the freedom! |
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