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| 4/3 |
| 2004/10/1-2 [Science/GlobalWarming] UID:33874 Activity:very high |
10/1 Let me ask a stupid question. Why can't NK and Iran have nuclear
weapon and nuclear power plant? The answer is obvious, because
they are terrorists! Well, by that logic, the majority of the
world (by population or number of country) right now view the
united states as the biggest threat to world peace, does that
mean we shouldn't have nuclear weapons too? So you say NK have
weapons aimed at SK that will level it in a few minutes. What
about the weapons we have in our stockpile that are aiming at
every major country in the world? I agree this would not make
a very interesting voting time topic, but everyone one of
these things we are going around telling NK and Iran they
can't do, we are doing it 10 times more. If you are NK or
Iran, what the fuck would you do? Do you really expect them to
reason with you? If you want other smaller countries not to go
nuclear, you need to at least show the rest of the world that
you will not consider nuclear yourself. But what do we do? We
are willing to use nuclear weapons on really really soft
targets like Iraq, I mean they can't even stand a chance
against us face to face, yet we want to use nuclear weapon on
them. You people voting for Bush honestly don't see something
wrong with this approach?
\_ Ah yes, moral equivalency. We are people, they are people. We
have certain weapons, they should be ok with the same weapons.
How about this one? My friend has two legs and drives a car, so
my child who also has two legs should be driving a car. The rest
of the world only understand raw raked power. They do not respect
anything else. Neither do we. It's what people are. You see the
world differently because you have been raised under the protective
umbrella of the most powerful military to ever exist on the planet.
It is easy to look out on the world from behind your barriers and
bunkers and proclaim peace in our time, if only everyone had the
same weapons we had, or better yet, we unilaterally disarmed to
show the world how friendly and nice and peaceful we are. Show
the world some love and they'll love you back, right? The rest
of the world respects weakness. Right? I won't reply further.
I think you're a troll but in case you're not, that's the reason.
\_ I don't think we should disarm, but I don't think we should
actively pursue new nuclear weapons at times when we tell
others to not pursue nuclear weapons. You view of the rest of
the world is twisted. Perhaps you should get out of your shell
in texas once in a while. -op
\_ The last nuclear warhead built was in GHWB 41 admin.- he issued
a order to stop making W88. In fact, we only test them thru
computer simulations.
\_ No!! Truth!! I'm melting... MELTING!! -Berkeley Liberal
\_ Just because you're only doing simulated weapons testing
doesn't mean you're not designing new weapons. True, they
aren't building new huge bombs like the W88, but they are
working on designing new smaller bombs that there will be
less political resistance to using. Computerized bomb
tests are just as much proliferation as real ones, it's
just more politically acceptable and clean.
\_ I guess you've never seen the W88.
\_ They aren't working very hard on it. As I understand
it, Bush was talking about starting to design the
smaller weapons you speak of, that doesn't mean
anyone is actually being paid to do so. Most of the
simulations are used for "stockpile stewardship."
That is, making sure the bombs still work and
refurbishing old bombs.
\_ bush got 6 million last year to begin work
on smaller conventional nuclear weapons. true
it's not 6 BILLION but i think it's still very
very evil.
http://www.electricityforum.com/news/nov03/nukes.html
- danh
\_ Why does an oil-rich nation like Iran need a nuclear power plant?
\_ America = Good, furriners = Evil. Might makes right.
\_ You are right. It is a stupid question.
\_ Consider that the average N. Korean is ~ 5 feet tall.
Any guess as to why? Here's a good article for you:
North Korean Gulag
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=5596
\_ So they fit better in artillery barrels?
\_ Fat arrogant americans deserves to be nuked.
\_ yeah sure, lets give everyone nukes and go for peace through
'mutually assured destruction'. You know this doesn't scale,
because it only takes one madman with his finger on the button to
knock down the whole house of cards for everyone. Dr Strangelove,
anyone?
\_ Which is exactly why letting "We will die for Allah" Iran have
them is a bad idea....
\_ You know, I am all for it, if we start to arrest all those
fucking drug dealers and fuckers in east palo alto or
oakland. Why don't we arrest those fuckers but wait for
them to commit a crime? I am all for it, if we apply the
same rules to domestic violence and crimes! If not, then
FUCK OFF!! -pissed off.
\_ Can anyone understand what this guy is saying? I can't.
\_ pissed off is making a comment about the assumption
of guilt of Iran because they are fundamentalists.
\_ What assumption? They DO fund terrorism, and
they DO send people of suicide missions, and
they're even proud of it. Is it ok to let the
criminally insane have assault weapons too?
\_ By that logic the US should give up its
nuclear weapons, being the only nation
to have ever used them, why should we
be trusted.
\_ What I am pissed off is we treat criminals here
like god (if you ever lived in a bad
neighborhood, you'll start to wonder why the
laws don't seem apply to them) and we treat
citizens of other countries like shit, blow
them up when we want to, kill them when we
pleases. And the worst part is, the very
fundamental laws and rules we are so proud of
(innocent until proven guilty), that we claim
is the best in the world, we throw it all out
when it does not work in our favor (preemptive
strike when we see fit) and we invent a new set
of rules. In fact, we invent/apply different
rules for different people. So there's nothing
so fucking great about our rules in the first
place because what we are doing only means it
sucks. That's the part I am really really
pissed about the current government. We tell
others you can't have nuclear weapon, we are
developing more nuclear weapons. The simple
fact is, most of the rules that we apply to
other countries because we can, because we have
bigger guns, we simply can' t apply it to
ourselves. Because we violate a lot of it.
There's a reason we have UN and international
laws and the like, precisely so that countries
don't just go about do their own business, just
like we have laws that governs what you and I
can and cannot do. If you believe our
government is doing the right thing, then you
should take justice into your own hands
whenever you wanted and just forget about the cops.
\_ Is there some kind of award we can give this guy?
How about an ASCII graphic of a shovel?
\_ Before you reply, remember what you said, it's
the idea that counts, not the language/debating
skill. |
| 4/3 |
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| www.electricityforum.com/news/nov03/nukes.html Click here for more information WASHINGTON -- President Bush will get funds for research on bunker buster'' bombs and other lower-intensity nuclear weapons, but not as much as he wanted. House-Senate bargainers agreed to the cuts recently as part of a compromise $273 billion bill financing energy and water programs for the government's new budget year. The bill also contains $580 million for early work on a nuclear waste storage site at Yucca Mountain in the Nevada desert -- nearly the full amount Bush requested. Negotiators shook hands on the bill as lawmakers stepped up efforts to finish their business for the year and adjourn by late November. To do that, they still must complete nine of the 13 spending bills for the federal budget year that started on Oct. Bargainers on the energy-water bill provided $75 million for work on the bunker busters, bombs that would burrow through earth and rock to destroy underground targets. The bill would provide all $6 million Bush proposed for research into mini-nukes'' of less than 5 kilotons. But $4 million of that amount would be provided only after the administration submits a report on the status of the country's nuclear weapons stockpile. The lawmakers provided $11 million of the $23 million the Energy Department wanted for preliminary studies for manufacturing plutonium triggers for nuclear weapons. The department says the triggers are needed for the country's aging arsenal of warheads. They also agreed to enough money to shorten the current three-year lead time needed to resume underground testing of nuclear weapons to two years, not the 18 months the administration requested. The House version of the bill had made even deeper cuts in the nuclear weapons work, while the Senate had agreed to give all the administration had requested. But opponents of nuclear testing complained that the final version went too far. I have the most profound objection to this reopening of the nuclear door,'' said Sen. The measure also provided $580 million for this year's work at Yucca Mountain, an underground site envisioned as the ultimate home for 77,000 tons of used reactor fuel and other highly radioactive waste now accumulating around the country. Though Bush and Congress decided last year to proceed with the project, Nevada lawmakers are still trying to kill it. One of the last disputes that had delayed the military construction bill was resolved when bargainers agreed to split earmarks -- money directed to specific home-district projects -- 53 percent for the Senate and 47 percent for the House. Earlier versions of the bill set aside roughly $700 million for Senate projects and $400 million for House earmarks. Controlling the House, Senate and White House for a full year for the first time since 1954, the GOP had hoped to efficiently churn out all 13 annual spending bills by Oct. But five weeks into the new fiscal year, fights over overtime pay for workers, media ownership, school vouchers and other issues have tripped up Republicans hoping to demonstrate their efficiency in running the government. They are also trying to find about $36 billion in additional funds for updated voting equipment, AIDS assistance abroad, veterans health care and education. The eight unfinished bills cover the budgets of 11 Cabinet level departments and dozens of other agencies. To keep them functioning, the House voted 418-5 to temporarily finance those agencies through Nov. Quick Senate passage was also expected for the third such bill lawmakers have passed this year. |
| www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=5596 com | January 17, 2003 In the far north of North Korea, in remote locations not far from the borders with China and Russia, a gulag not unlike the worst labor camps built by Mao and Stalin in the last century holds some 200,000 men, women and children accused of political crimes. A month-long investigation by NBC News, including interviews with former prisoners, guards and US and South Korean officials, revealed the horrifying conditions these people must endure conditions that shock even those North Koreans accustomed to the near-famine conditions of Kim Jong Ils realm. ITS ONE of the worst, if not the worst situation human rights abuse situation in the world today, said Sen. There are very few places that could compete with the level of depravity, the harshness of this regime in North Korea toward its own people. Satellite photos provided by DigitalGlobe, which first appeared in the Far Eastern Economic Review, confirm the existence of the camps, and interviews with those who have been there and with US officials who study the North suggest Brownbacks assessment may be conservative. Among NBC News findings: * At one camp, Camp 22 in Haengyong, some 50,000 prisoners toil each day in conditions that US officials and former inmates say results in the death of 20 percent to 25 percent of the prison population every year. Messages left at the office of North Koreas permanent representative to the United Nations went unanswered. Eung Soo Han, a press officer at South Koreas UN consulate, said: It is a very unfortunate situation, and our hearts go out to those who suffer. We hope North Korea will open up its country, and become more actively involved with the international community in order for the North Korean people to be lifted out of their difficult situation. LABOR, DEATH, ABUSE NBCs investigation revealed that North Koreas State Security Agency maintains a dozen political prisons and about 30 forced labor and labor education camps, mainly in remote areas. Some of them are gargantuan: At least two of the camps, Haengyong and Huaong, are larger in area than the District of Columbia, with Huaong being three times the size of the US capital district. Satellite photos provided by DigitalGlobe show several of the camps, including the notorious Haengyong, for the first time outside official circles. Plainly visible are acres upon acres of barracks, laid out in regimented military style. Surrounding each of them is 10-foot-high barbed-wire fencing along with land mines and man traps. There is even a battery of anti-aircraft guns to prevent a liberation by airborne troops. Ahn Myong Chol, a guard at the camp (which is sometimes known as Hoeryong) from 1987 through 1994, examined the satellite photos of Camp 22 for NBC News. He was able to pick out the family quarters for prisoners, the work areas, the propaganda buildings. Looking at the imagery, Ahn noted what happened in each building: This is the detention center, he said. If someone goes inside this building, in three months he will be dead or disabled for life. In this corner they decided about the executions, who to execute and whether to make it public. This is the Kim Il Sung institute, a movie house for officers. Pointing to another spot, he said: This is the garbage pond where the two kids were killed when guard kicked them in pond. Another satellite photo shows a coal mine at the Chungbong camp where prisoners are worked to exhaustion in a giant pit. All of North Korea is a gulag, said one senior US official, noting that as many as 2 million people have died of starvation while Kim has amassed the worlds largest collection of Daffy Duck cartoons. No one knows for sure how many people are in the camps, but 200,000 is consistent with our best guess. We dont have a breakdown, but there are large numbers of both women and children. BEYOND THE PALE It is the widespread jailing of political prisoners families that makes North Korea unique, according to human rights advocates. Under a directive issued by Kims father, North Koreas founder, Kim Il Sung, three generations of a dissidents family can be jailed simply on the basis of a denunciation. NBC News interviewed two former prisoners and a former guard about conditions in the camps. Their litany of camp brutalities is unmatched anywhere in the world, say human rights activists. Listening to their stories, its horrific, said David Hawk, a veteran human rights campaigner and a consultant for the US Committee for Human Rights in North Korea. Its hard to do more than one or two a day because theyre just so painful to hear: horrific mistreatment - all sorts of suffering, beatings to death, executions. Kang Chol-Hwan is now a journalist with Chosun Ilbo, South Koreas most important newspaper. His recent book, "The Aquariums of Pyongyang," is the first memoir of a North Korean political prisoner. For nearly a decade, he was imprisoned because his grandfather had made complimentary statements about Japanese capitalism. His grandfather was never seen again, and prison conditions killed his father. When I was 10 years old, Kang recalled, We were put to work digging clay and constructing a building. And there were dozens of kids, and while digging the ground, it collapsed. And they buried the kids secretly, without showing their parents, even though the parents came. The system appears to draw no distinction between those accused of the crime and their family members. Soon Ok Lee, imprisoned for seven years at a camp near Kaechon in Pyungbuk province, described how the female relatives of male prisoners were treated. "I was in prison from 1987 till January 1993," she told NBC News in Seoul, where she now lives. They put salty water into the pregnant womens womb with a large syringe, in order to kill the baby even when the woman was 8 months or 9 months pregnant. And then, from time to time there a living infant is delivered. And then if someone delivers a live infant, then the guards kick the bloody baby and kill it. I have to express this in words, that I witnessed such an inhumane hell. TESTING ON HUMANS Soon also spoke about the use of prisoners as guinea pigs, which a senior US official describes as very plausible. Hundreds of people became victims of biochemical testing. I was imprisoned in 1987 and during the years of 1988 through 93, when I was released, I saw the research supervisors they were enjoying the effect of biochemical weapons, effective beyond their expectations they were saying they were successful. She tearfully described how in one instance about 50 inmates were taken to an auditorium and given a piece of boiled cabbage to eat. Within a half hour, they began vomiting blood and quickly died. I saw that in 20 or 30 minutes they died like this in that place. Prison guard Ahns memories are, like the others, nothing short of gruesome. I heard many times that eyeballs were taken out by beating, he recalled. And I saw that by beating the person the muscle was damaged and the bone was exposed, outside, and they put salt on the wounded part. At the beginning I was frightened when I witnessed it, but it was repeated again and again, so my feelings were paralyzed. Moreover, said Ahn, beating and killing prisoners was not only tolerated, it was encouraged and even rewarded. They trained me not to treat the prisoners as human beings. If someone is against socialism, if someone tries to escape from prison, then kill him, Ahn said. If theres a record of killing any escapee then the guard will be entitled to study in the college. President Bush told author and Washington Post Assistant Managing Editor Bob Woodward last year that he was well aware of the camps and the atrocities. That, officials say, partly explains why Bush insisted on North Koreas inclusion in the axis of evil in his 2002 State of the Union address. I loathe Kim Jong Il, Bush told Woodward during an interview for the authors book Bush at War. Ive got a visceral reaction to this guy because he is starving his people. And I have seen intelligence of these prison camps theyre huge that he uses to break up families and to torture people. Brownback, a senator with a reputation a... |