9/22    Well, that's a whole 'nother subject.  I
        personally think it's unfair to take away
        felon's right to vote, but I won't debate
        that here.  Make another thread if you want.
        \_ So serial rapists, murderers, the criminally insane, etc. are a-ok?
           Are you for real?  -- ilyas
           \_ So in your mind felon==serial rapist or murderer?  Are you for
              real?  The range of things one can get a felony conviction for
              is much, much larger than that.
           \_ There's obvious value in denying these people the right to walk
              the streets, but what exactly the value in denying them the vote?
              It's certainly not deterance.  Are you afraid they'll all band
              together and elect Satan or something?  If you've served your
              time, are you less entitled to have a say in how society is run?
              (Insane people are another matter entirely.)
              \_ I'm pretty sure these people will vote for whichever candidate
                 that, say, supports cutting law enforcement funding by half
                 and replacing all jail sentenses with probation.  It'll make
                 their future easier.
                 \_ So?  It won't pass unless a majority of voters supports it,
                    and if a majority of voters supports it, maybe the felons'
                    candidate wasn't so wacky after all.  The right to vote
                    doesn't just belong to the people you agree with.
           \_ The majority of people convicted of felonies are there
              for drug crimes. As a libertarian, you should be sympathetic
              to their plight. Maybe we could change the law so that
              only those guilty of violent felonies lose their voting
              rights.
              \_ I am, I support decriminalization of all drugs.  Having said
                 that, I am against letting felons vote (using my definition
                 of felon).  I should clarify my view a little.  I believe in
                 a retributive system of justice, if someone finished their
                 restitution, they reenter society and are no longer a 'felon/
                 criminal/whatever.'  They are accorded full rights.  Some
                 crimes are 'permanent' in that you never finish with your
                 restitution.  People committing those crimes are 'permanent
                 felons,' and I do not want those guys to vote ever (they give
                 up a lot more basic rights permanently, like their freedom).
                   -- ilyas
                 I haven't thought very hard about which crimes ought to involve
                 permanent restitution status, but off-the-cuff, I think it
                 will have something to do with the 'irreversibility' of the
                 damage caused by the crime.  -- ilyas
                 \_ Crimes of theft/fraud are theoretically reversible, but
                    seldom are.  Threatening someone with a gun is not
                    reversible, but seldom scars the victim for life.
                    \_ what is your point?
                       \_ Your justification for denying felons the right to
                          vote seems to have a pretty fuzzy foundation if you
                          can't even say which felons should be disenfranchised
                          \_ 'Felons,' as I understand the term give up a bunch
                             of rights while they are in 'debt.'  The
                             justification for making them give up these rights
                             is so they are forced to 'pay,' and can't run off
                             or vote away their 'debt' (or go further into
                             'debt').  If you are attacking me
                             for being unable to provide a precise
                             characterization of a 'permanent felon,' then
                             that's a pretty weak attack.  Addressing the
                             problem fully would require a book and a lot more
                             knowledge than I have.  This doesn't make the
                             approach invalid.  Our justice system has the
                             notion of a 'permanent felon' also, I merely
                             sought to give a 'short' description of what
                             that class of people ought to be. -- ilyas
              \_ Why deny violent felons the right to vote?  Seriously. -op