9/13    NYT: "Canada Looks for Ways to Fix Its Health Care System"
        link:csua.org/u/90n
        \_ One patient who went to the emergency ward recently, Crystal
           Bentley, 22, complained of cysts behind her ears. She said she
           would prefer to see her family doctor but would have to wait
           in his office for hours. She said she went to the hospital
           because the emergency room was faster.
           "Seeing a doctor and not having to pay is phenomenal," she said.
           Shessh.  And they wonder why the doctors are overworked.
           Tragety of the Commons anyone?
           \_ the idea is not to have universal health care but
              universal health INSURANCE, with high deductibles and
              copay until a significantly high limit is reached.
              This would reduce abuse.
              \_ Hey, I'd *love* that personally right now.  Problem is, I
                 can't buy a plan like that.
                 \_ Why not? They are available for sale.
              \_ Limit it to a percentage of estimated yearly income.
              \_ I understand this basic priciple.  I curious, do you
                 think there should still be private insurance companies
                 in that system?  And if you belonged to a private
                 insurance company, you wouldn't pay for the government
                 one?  How does this stack up against the great money hole
                 that is MediCare?
                 \_ Mostly, I am just thinking in terms of what should
                    be done if we want universal health insurance.  The
                    important thing is to make it such that market
                    forces still play a role for the patients, the doctors,
                    hospitals, the pharmaceutical companies, etc.
                    Generally speaking, I think there should still be
                    private insurance companies providing additional
                    benefits at additional costs, but I haven't
                    thought through the details yet.
        \_ "...elective surgery like hip replacements."
        \_ Has anybody else tried a plan like Lumenos?  They basically put $1000
           per year into my account (which rolls over year to year) which I
           can use or save as I see fit.  If I ever deplete my account,
           there's an $800 "bridge" for which I'm responsible, and then the plan
           functions much like a PPO, mostly 80%/20%, up to $2500/year.  I can
           choose any doctor I want, even chiropractors, no copays or anything
           like that.  My company seems to like it, as they're increasing
           the incentives to switch to this plan.  The front office nurses never
           seem to know about it, but one even exclaimed "no shit?" in front of
           her boss because she liked the idea.
        \_ The Canadian system is still better than the American system
           on every measurable deliverable. They spend 2/3 as much as a
           percentage of GDP and get better or comparable results. The
           problems mentioned in that article are all more severe in
           the United States: rural doctor shortages, long lines at
           ERs and drop in clinics and a shortage of primary care
           physicians.
           \_ You need to acknowledge that the U.S. does not have Canadian-
              style taxation.  You get what you pay for.  (Everyone pays for
              universal health care in Canada; the problem is long waits and
              lack of family doctors in small-town areas.  In the U.S., people
              pay less taxes; the problem is lots of poor and middle-income
              people who can't afford any health care.) -liberal
              \_ There are doctor shortages in rural US areas too.
              \_ "Liberal"?
                 \_ There, I expanded my post for you.  Basically, if you say
                    "The Canadian health care system is great!", you need
                    to say, "It will cost you", too.
                    \_ The Canadian system will cost you less than the US
                       system.  The difference is the canadisn system is paid
                       for by taxes, not by HMO premiums.
                 \_ He meant to say "libertarian" but misspelled it.
           \_ I have no personal experience with the Canadian.  Say I am a
              random Joe working some average office job with health insurance
              at an HMO.  How would the Canadian system serve me better?
              \_ One problem is how much the health insurance is costing
                 the companies, and the cost continues to rise fast.
                 recently someone posted a link to an article saying
                 that many companies are curtailing hiring because of
                 the high cost of health insurance.  it could also
                 potentially make US companies less competitive.
                 Personally, I also find dealing with HMOs, etc.,
                 being forced to switch insurance (and doctors) when
                 changing jobs, dealing with the HMO bureacracy (not
                 paying my doctor for a few months, for instance), etc.
                 a big pain.