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| 5/27 |
| 2004/9/9 [Reference/History/WW2/Japan, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Japan] UID:33437 Activity:very high |
9/9 Oh man, only 75 protesters showed up at Malkin's speach last
night, and from the picture it doesn't even look like any of them
were students.
http://dailycal.org/article.php?id=16037
\_ um, you're confusing active and outspoken Berkeley
students of the 60s with the currently apathetic, confused,
self-centered, and capitalistic minded Berkeley students
of today.
\_ things were pretty racist back then. people today are like,
where's the racism today? Why do black people and hispanics
get preferential treatment in admissions?
\_ Mmm... uninformed troll...
\_ wasn't it pretty racist back then? aren't BCR people
today asking where's the racism today, and why do black
people and hispanics get preferential treatment in
admissions?
\_ blacks and hispanics don't get preferential treatment
in admissions.
\_ yer right. Admissions from these groups have
dropped a lot since the change in the UC system.
BCR people are actually thinking, "Yeah, see, we
were right."
\_ Yes, issues of racism have gotten better, but they're
definitely not gone. To think that they are is
incredibly naive, immature, or stupid.
\_ yer right. BCR people are worried about reverse
discrimination.
\_ I would say most of the protestors were students. There
were 5 or 6 well behaved non student Spartacus league
freaks outside of Dwinelle. The Dwinelle hallway is just
not that big so there wasn't that much room for much
of anything to happen. Michelle Malkin writes that
there were hundreds of her supporters who couldn't get in,
I don't agree. oh that photo you are talking about
is from the sproul lunch thing, i'm talking about her
actual speech at the BCR meeting. the protest photo
was during daylight, malkin's speech was around 8pm
last night. - danh
\_ Whew. I was afraid the Berkeley students were growing
brains or something. Nice to know I've still got plenty of
idiots to laugh at. Of course, inviting Maulkin at all is
pretty stupidly funny.
\_ you can get a good idea of where Malkin is coming from
just by reading her blog for a while
http://www.michellemalkin.com . I really doubt she
woke up one morning and thought "The Japanese
internment was good for the motherland in ww2. I must
correct this historical misunderstanding and write
a book!" - danh
\_ She excoriates Delta Airlines for booting a non-paying
soldier from a flight in favor of a paying customer with
a ticket. I wonder what she has to say about Halliburton
serving spoiled food to US troops.
\_ it's very smart of the BCR boys. they know if they
invite some nutcase who writes a book about how
the Japanese American internment was not motivated
by racism at all and actually helped the ww2 war effort,
she gets some more laughs by claiming they showed
up voluntarily and that over half of the camp detainees
were non Japanese, that people will get pissed
off and show up and shout a lot. then the BCR
people and their unholy David Horowitz zombie masters
can include wild eyed photos of Berkeley liberals
in their next fundraising newsletter. - danh
\_ Americans of German and Italian descent were not ordered
to report to their nearest detention facility
\_ They were in the UK. -John
\_ The Germans and Italians didn't attack American land
in the Atlantic, nor did they have any sort of naval
capability to do so (U-boats were ship-to-ship
weapons); only a handful of battleships/cruisers,
no real amphibious force, and no aircraft carriers
\_ The point was to clarify the "over half of the
camp detainees were non Japanese". Those
individuals didn't have to be there if they were
American citizens and didn't break any laws,
unlike American citizens of Japanese descent.
In any case, if it floats your boat to say that
it was right to detain all Americans of Japanese
descent because the Japanese COULD have invaded
the U.S. and Japanese-Americans COULD turn traitor
and spy for the enemey, and innocent Japanese-
Americans had to be detained in the interest of the
greater good, so be it, but I want to hear you say
it. So far all I'm getting is "what about this,
what about that", "I can understand why they did
that", but no "They were right to intern Japanese-
Americans!"
\_ Not to defend what was done, but put yourself
in the position of the guy who made that
decision the other way, "we won't intern", on
8 Dec 1941. Then a Japanese invasion force
arrives in 1942 and is aided by some Japanese-
Americans. Internment was the conservative
(and in retrospect, unnecessary) thing to do.
\_ Japanese emigration has long been funded
in part by the War Ministry and ultimately
became a national policy in 1932. In
Manchuria, for example, the line between
Japanese immigrant farmer and the military
has always been somewhat blurry. The May
15th incident, where elements of the Japanese
Army assasinated the local Chinese warlord,
involved participation by emigre Japanese
farmers. The Japanese Kwantung Army also
drew recruits and support from Japanese
emigres in China.
\_ I am not sure if you could equate Japanese
emigration to Manchuria with emigration
to US. Since 1895, and even before, Japan
had wanted to make Manchuria part
of the Japanese Empire. I don't believe
you can say the same for emigrants to the
US.
\_ Yes, I am sure a different department
in the War Ministry handled US
emigration.
\_ Japanese also emigrated to SE Asia
to work as prostitutes. I am sure
the War Ministry had a hand in that
too. Not to mention emigration to
Peru, etc.
\_ Now, I am sure you are aware
of the logical fallacy in your
prostitution claim.
\_ no I am not, please
enlighten.
\_ Emigration for prostitution
is different than emigration
for more legitimate reasons.
\_ If prostitutes managed to
emigrate without the
War Ministry's blessing,
so could other people,
(for instance, people
who emigrated to
escape poverty)
which puts a big hole
in your theory that
Japanese emigrants all
emigrated in the service
of Imperial Japan's
interests.
\_ Again, the logical
fallacies fly hard
and fast. 1. I
never said *all*
immigrants were in
the service of
Imperial Japan.
2. That all Japanese
emigre prostitutes
were unsupported by
the Japanese govner-
ment does not imply
that no other Japanese
emigres were supported
by the government.
\_ Was there ever a country invaded by
the Japanese in WW2 where the local
Japanese immigrants did not provide
material or logistic support to the
invading force?
\_ what are the countries where the
local Japanese did provide
support? China? Where else?
\_ Korea, Hong Kong, Taiwan that I
know of. Now please come up with
the counter examples.
\_ I am not aware of many Japanese
in Hong Kong when the Japanese
invaded. Taiwan was
a Japanese colony since 1895.
As for Korea, are you talking
about about Korea before or
after it became a Japanese
colony. If after, it's
irrelevant.
\_ Hello, loser: You have just written
"what about this, what about that". I am
looking for "They were right to intern
Japanese-Americans".
\_ It's so easy to speak from your
air-conditioned office in front of
a computer. I envy you your
innocence.
\_ It's so easy to speak from your
air-conditioned office in front of
a computer. I don't envy your lack
of reading comprehension.
I am looking for "They were right to
intern Japanese-Americans".
If you think that way, just write
it down! If you don't, write
that down too! All I'm getting is
"I can understand why they did
that" and "what about this, what
about that".
\_ If I knew what I would have
known then, I would have done
the same thing.
\_ In hindsight, was it the right
thing to do?
\_ Hard to say. I will
allow that some innocents
were caught up in the
internment. Will I say
that everyone interned
were wrongly so? No.
Would some of those
interned have provided
aid to the Japanese had
they the opportunity to
do so? I suspect so.
Is the harm prevented
greater than the harm
created? I don't know.
\_ You know you are being
misleading when you
say "some" innocents
were caught up in the
internment?
\_ What's so misleading
about "some"? I
think "some" is
somewhere between
none and all. Would
I believe that "most"
of the Japanese
immigrants here would
have provided aid
to a Japanese invasion
force? Yes.
_/
[Keep in mind we are talking about American citizens of
Japanese descent, not non-citizen Japanese residents]
Lieutenant Commander Kenneth Ringle, a naval intelligence
officer tasked with evaluating the loyalty of the Japanese
American population, estimated in a 1941 report to his
superiors that "better than 90% of the Nisei [second
generation] and 75% of the original immigrants were completely
loyal to the United States." A 1941 report prepared on
Roosevelt's orders by Curtis B. Munson, special representative
of the State Department, concluded that most Japanese nationals
and "90 to 98 percent" of Japanese American citizens were
loyal. He wrote: "There is no Japanese `problem' on the Coast
... There is far more danger from Communists and people of the
Bridges type on the Coast than there is from Japanese."
\_ Who are "people of the Bridges type"?
\_ Guess first, then read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Bridges
\_ You mean this report? http://csua.org/u/8z4
This is just the first thing google popped up searching
for "ringle japan". It certainly does not say what you
claimed in your post. Your URL please?
\_ http://csua.org/u/8z5 (Amazon.com page scan)
Read the rest of the page, and the next page, too.
Note that the point I am trying to convey to you is that
the vast majority of American citizens of Japanese
descent were loyal and were no threat to America.
\_ Actually, you meant the page before your reference.
Yours was a quote of Ringle. Now I refer you to
mine, which is a part of the Ringle report itself
(http://csua.org/u/8z4 Where his conclusion is
3% (or 3500 people) are actively dangerous.
\_ why it makes sense to order all Americans citizens of Japanese
descent to report to your nearest detention facility!
\_ All Americans of Arab descent will report to your nearest
re-education facility, to be held until the War On Terror
is over.
\_ the scary thing is, this could very well happen.
\_ I doubt it. More likely is lots of Arabs are questioned
by the feds and iffy ones are surveiled, as if that might not
already be happening. 100% detention of any ethnic group
in America is highly unlikely, because of our prior experience
in this area with Japanese-American internment.
Yes, even if there is a nuclear detonation, I doubt there will
be 100% detention of American citizens of Arab descent,
although there will certainly be plenty of hate crimes. |
| 5/27 |
|
| dailycal.org/article.php?id=16037 Calling these policies necessary for national security during wartime, Malkin, an author and Fox News Channel commentator, said civil libertarians use the internment card too much, drawing on Japanese internment to counter current racial profiling practices. Misguided guilt about the past continues to hamper our ability to prevent future terrorist attacks, she said. Drawing on her research of government documents, exhibits and textbooks, Malkin said that nearly half of World War II internees were European, which she said is glossed over in textbooks. Malkin also said there was a serious threat of Japanese invasion, pointing to intercepted intelligence messages describing Japanese government officials in Los Angeles, San Francisco and Honolulu monitoring military shipments into West Coast. Malkin tries to fill in what she said is left out of school books in her controversial new book, In Defense of Internment: The Case for Racial Profiling in World War II and the War on Terror. Malkin was met with nearly 75 students and activists gathered in front of Dwinelle Hall holding fliers and picket signs, some not only protesting her visit but also the Bush administration and budget cuts. Its harmful to spread this type of ideology, to justify racial profiling, said Evonne Lai, co-chair of the Asian Pacific Council, who was protesting Malkins book. Some students were skeptical of the facts presented in her book. The thesis of Malkins book is not only factually incorrect but dangerous dangerous in our current political situation and incredibly insensitive to the victims of this denial of justice, said junior Matt Tokeshi. Dozens hoping to hear Malkin speak, including many demonstrators, were shut out of the full auditorium. With chants of shame seeping in from outside of the room and protesters banging on the door, Malkin had to stop her speech periodically to be heard. The real shame is that people are too close-minded to consider the evidence I have, Malkin said, adding they dont understand what a liberal education truly is. Malkin emphasized she did not advocate rounding up all Arabs and Muslims and tossing them into camps. The inconveniences of profiling should not be any reason to hinder national security, she said. Inconveniences are preferable to being incinerated at an office desk by a flaming, hijacked plane, she said, which elicited cheers from the audience. Wartime profiling has nothing to do with prejudice, she said. Malkin also said she should not be classified as a right-wing pundit, adding she is critical of the Bush administration's profiling measures. There are profiling measures already built into our laws ... I think the Bush administration bears responsibility for these failures. Some students from Berkeley College Republicans, which sponsored the event, said Malkin presented enough evidence to back up her claims. I do agree with her point on racial profiling, said Amaury Gallais, president of BCR. Its a very important practice that we need to put in place in order to improve our national security. |
| www.michellemalkin.com headline in the news section of the San Francisco Chronicle referred to me as a "right-wing pundit." In last night's speech I mused that if New York Times columnist Maureen Dowd came to the Bay Area, no Chronicle headline would refer to her as a "left-wing pundit." Many thanks to the Berkeley College Republicans and those who came, and heartfelt apologies to the hundreds of supporters who could not get in to the lecture hall due to the limited number of seats. Today, I'm flying to Los Angeles to speak at USC Law School. Friday, I'll be signing books at Borders Books in Puyallup, Wash. My American University speech, which was scheduled for Monday, September 13, has been cancelled. My host, the AU College Republicans, informed me yesterday that "because of the issue of Japanese internment, our club is taking a lot of flack from the Administration here at American University. In so many words or less, our future funding is in serious jeapordy (sic)." In a subsequent e-mail sent early this morning, my host stated that "Staff members for the Bush campaign itself have frowned on us for having an event centered on the internment of Japanese Americans." Danny Westneat's view that internment ought not even be debated, let alone defended in a stand-alone speech. My Johns Hopkins speech, scheduled for Wednesday September 15th, is still on. The event is slated to begin at 8 pm at Shriver Auditorium. I'll have more to say about the Berkeley speech, the news coverage of it, and the AU cancellation in the days to come. op-ed piece about homeland security in an age of terror by Abraham Cooper and Harold Brackman of the Simon Wiesenthal Center. The major points of the piece are that "the ongoing global terrorist threat poses the greatest challenge to the American future since the Cold War and the specter of nuclear annihilation" and that politicians should provide greater leadership on determining how to confront this threat. Pretty standard fare, but if you read the whole thing, Cooper and Brackman reveal a more interesting motivation for writing the piece--namely, their disgust with those who invoke the Holocaust and Japanese internment cards every time our leaders try to do something to secure the homeland against the threat of Islamic terrorism. Key excerpts: "A new book by journalist Michelle Malkin, "In Defense of Internment: The Case for Racial Profiling in World War II and the War on Terror," raises critical issues that our presidential candidates need to address. Malkin makes a compelling case for the Patriot Act and profiling as legitimate tools in the current war against terror." "Like Arab and Muslim activists who campaign to repeal the Patriot Act without proposing any constructive alternatives, some Latino activists pursue their agenda for more rights and privileges for undocumented workers, without simultaneously addressing the very real post-9/11 internal security implications." "to unjustifiably compare opposition to legislation for driver's licenses of illegal immigrants to genocidal Nazis forcing Jews to wear "the yellow star" or to those responsible for interning the Japanese Americans, only invites an escalation of rhetoric and extremism, not the dialogue needed to create balanced public policy." Even more interesting, Cooper and Brackman acknowledge that many history books neglect the crucial role of MAGIC in the development of FDR's homeland security policies during WW II: "Malkin is right that many sanitized histories ignore the documented threat - revealed in declassified Japanese cables - that was posed by spy rings operated by Imperial Japan's foreign agents in complicity with a handful of Japanese Americans." Ultimately, Cooper and Brackman do not agree with my conclusion that the round-up of ethnic Japanese during WW II was justified. September 08, 2004 06:25 AM Law professor Eric Muller's critiques of my book, which began reasonably enough in early August, have degenerated into irrationality. hysterical letter by the newly-formed "Historians' Committee for Fairness." Although Muller himself is not a credentialed historian, the letter attacked me because (among other things) "Malkin is not a historian." "It's Over") because I "conceded" that the Roosevelt Administration was primarily concerned about hit-and-run raids on the West Coast rather than a massive amphibious invasion. Sorry to pop your bubble of self-delusion, professor, but this was no concession. I wrote on page 12: "While a full-scale Japanese invasion of the US mainland was considered unlikely, hit-and-run raids were, in the view of Secretary of War Henry Stimson, not only possible, but probable in the first months of the war, and it was quite impossible to be sure that the raiders would not receive important help from individuals of Japanese origin. I expect these kind of distortions from second-tier critics, but I had hoped for a higher level of debate from a professor of law at a prestigious university. Fortunately, I am not the only one disappointed in the quality of Muller's argumentation. critiques of Michelle Malkins work, which I found convincing. Malkin has in fact responded strongly to her critics, and answered the charges meticulously. I think it should be mandatory for History News Network to post her response, having given three spaces to historians who have challenged her arguments. She has responded cogently and persuasively to many of the charges made against her in the two articles I passed on, and has proved that she has, contrary to their assertions, done a lot of primary research. It is also clear that her critics have savagely distorted her arguments. Those interested should read her book, the arguments of her critics, and decide for themselves. Ron Radosh Thank you, Mr Radosh, for demonstrating what academic fair-mindedness is really all about. September 07, 2004 07:17 AM How did Delta Airlines and one its passengers treat a Marine trying to get home for her child's second birthday while on a short leave from Iraq? Excerpt: This letter is to the young female soldier from Benton, who I had the privilege to meet this past Friday evening as we were both trying to get home to Arkansas. Returning from a business trip to New Jersey, I was changing planes in Cincinnati when we met. I had just boarded Delta Flight 6281 (operated by Chautauqua Airlines, a Delta Connection Carrier), Delta's last flight of the evening to Little Rock, when you came onboard and sat down in front of me. I, along with other passengers who had already boarded, listened while you shared your story with us. six months in Iraq, you were traveling home to Arkansas. While in Iraq, you had been under enemy fire frequently - on many occasions, several times a day. You had lost two fellow soldiers from your post, and just recently (watched) another lose a leg. You were exhausted from two days of travel, having flown from Iraq to Kuwait, from Kuwait to the Netherlands, from the Netherlands to Cincinnati but you were excited and happy, because Cincinnati to Little Rock meant you would be home, just in time for your youngest child's second birthday. You had 18 days' leave remaining before returning to Iraq. This letter is also to the well-dressed, middle-aged woman who boarded the plane late, who through some administrative error had been assigned the same seat as the soldier. Your behavior made it obvious to me and those around me that you had no intention of handling the situation in a mature way. You approached the flight attendant and demanded "your seat." As the flight attendant worked with the gate crew to try and resolve the issue, the soldier was asked to leave the plane. When I inquired as to whether you were aware that the individual who had previously been in "your seat" was a soldier traveling home from Iraq on leave to see her family, your verbatim response was, "So what I'm a victim from Chicago! It was apparent that you have no appreciation for your fellow Americans who leave home and family and risk their lives wearing the uniform of the United States military. When I, along with several others onboard, approached the Chautauqua flight attendant volunteering to giv... |
| en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Bridges International Longshore and Warehouse Union (ILWU), a union which he helped form and where he served as president for over 40 years. Born in Melbourne Australia, Bridges went to sea at age 16 as a merchant seaman. He entered the United States in 1920, becoming a naturalized citizen in 1945. Industrial Workers of the World (IWW), participating in a nationwide seamen's strike. His early experiences in the IWW would influence his beliefs on militant unionism based on rank and file power and involvement. In 1932 he became spokesperson for a group of dockers who promoted unionism in the maritime industry. A year later, SF longshoremen received their first ILA charter, but the employers refused to negotiate a contract. This led to the strike of 1934, an affair known as "Bloody Thursday" because two strikers lost their lives and many were injured from police violence. general strike of all San Francisco workers leading to a coastwise agreement, union hiring halls, shorter hours, safer working conditions, and a pay increase. In 1937 the ILWU was formed out of a split from the ILA. Congress of Industrial Organizations (CIO) but was expelled in 1950 during the Cold War era anti-Communist witch-hunts. Bridges believed that the ILWU should be a union completely free and open to membership by all, regardless of race, nationality, or belief. In 1939 the United States government attempted to deport Bridges, accusing him of being a communist, a charge that would haunt him for several years. On July 28 2001, on what would have been Bridges' 100th birthday, the ILWU organized a week long event celebrating the life of Harry Bridges. This culminated in a march of over 8000 unionists and supporters across the Vincent Thomas Bridge from Terminal Island to San Pedro California. The longshormen shut down the port for 8 hours in honor of Bridges. |
| csua.org/u/8z4 -> vikingphoenix.com/public/JapanIncorporated/1895-1945/ringle-1.htm Commander KD Ringle, USN, and sent to the Chief of Naval Operations on the doho problem. This letter was made available to the deliberations of the Commission on Wartime Relocation and Internment of Civilians, but was deleted from the final CWRIC Report and Findings (See page 215, American and Japanese Relocation in World War II; Fact, Fiction & Fallacy, Lillian Baker, Webb Research Group, Medford, 1990). is a portion of the RINGLE REPORT that was delected from CWRIC Report and Findings. This accounts for the letter consisting of subparagraphs. A True Copy BIO/KD/KF37/A8-5 Serial LA/1055/re 26 JAN 1942 DECLASSIFIED (Previously classified CONFIDENTIAL) From: LIEUTENANT COMMANDER KD RINGLE, USN To: The Chief of Naval Operations Via: The Commandant, Eleventh Naval District Subject: Japanese Question, Report on That of the Japanese-born alien residents, the large majority are at least passively loyal to the United States. That is, they would knowingly do nothing whatever to the injury of the United States, but at the same time would not do anything to the injury of Japan. Also, most of the remainder would not engage in active sabotage or insurrection, but might well do surreptitious observation work for Japanese interests if given a convenient opportunity. That, however, there are among the Japanese both alien and United States citizens, certain individuals, either deliberately placed by the Japanese government or actuated by a fanatical loyalty to that country, who would act as saboteurs or agents. This number is estimated to be less than three percent of the total, or about 3,500 in the entire United States. Black Dragon Society, the Kaigun Kyokai (Navy League), or the Hoirusha Kai (Military Service Man's League), or affiliated groups. The membership of these groups is already fairly well known to the Naval Intelligence Service or the Federal Bureau of Investigation and should be immediately placed in custodial detention, irrespective of whether they are alien or citizen. That in spite of paragraph above, the most potentially dangerous element of all are those American citizens of Japanese ancestry who have spent the formative years of their lives, from 10 to 20, in Japan and have returned to the United States to claim their legal American citizenship within the last few years. Those people are essentially and inherently Japanese and may have been deliberately sent back to the United States by the Japanese government to act as agents. In spite of their legal citizenship and the protection afforded them by the Bill of Rights, they should be looked upon as enemy aliens and many of them placed in custodial detention. This group numbers between 600 and 700 in the Los Angeles metropolitan area and at least that many in other parts of Southern California. Contact / Stats August 3, 1996: web page established, 0 visitors. |
| csua.org/u/8z5 -> www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0809015536/ref=sib_vae_pg_25/002-5494429-0292045?%5Fencoding=UTF8&keywords=better%20than&p=S012&twc=9&checkSum=pFGjRoaUuTwlZJMexe78Mk7FLqmi2m11rKccQUsveE4%3D/103-4208937-3366213 Sign In To view publisher-copyrighted material from this book, please sign in or register as a new user. |
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