Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 33437
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2021/10/25 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
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2004/9/9 [Reference/History/WW2/Japan, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Japan] UID:33437 Activity:very high
9/9     Oh man, only 75 protesters showed up at Malkin's speach last
        night, and from the picture it doesn't even look like any of them
        were students.
        http://dailycal.org/article.php?id=16037
        \_ um, you're confusing active and outspoken Berkeley
           students of the 60s with the currently apathetic, confused,
           self-centered, and capitalistic minded Berkeley students
           of today.
           \_ things were pretty racist back then.  people today are like,
              where's the racism today?  Why do black people and hispanics
              get preferential treatment in admissions?
              \_ Mmm... uninformed troll...
                 \_ wasn't it pretty racist back then?  aren't BCR people
                    today asking where's the racism today, and why do black
                    people and hispanics get preferential treatment in
                    admissions?
                    \_ blacks and hispanics don't get preferential treatment
                       in admissions.
                       \_ yer right.  Admissions from these groups have
                          dropped a lot since the change in the UC system.
                          BCR people are actually thinking, "Yeah, see, we
                          were right."
                    \_ Yes, issues of racism have gotten better, but they're
                       definitely not gone.  To think that they are is
                       incredibly naive, immature, or stupid.
                       \_ yer right.  BCR people are worried about reverse
                          discrimination.
        \_ I would say most of the protestors were students.  There
           were 5 or 6 well behaved non student Spartacus league
           freaks outside of Dwinelle.  The Dwinelle hallway is just
           not that big so there wasn't that much room for much
           of anything to happen.  Michelle Malkin writes that
           there were hundreds of her supporters who couldn't get in,
           I don't agree.   oh that photo you are talking about
           is from the sproul lunch thing, i'm talking about her
           actual speech at the BCR meeting.  the protest photo
           was during daylight, malkin's speech was around 8pm
           last night. - danh
           \_ Whew.  I was afraid the Berkeley students were growing
              brains or something.  Nice to know I've still got plenty of
              idiots to laugh at.  Of course, inviting Maulkin at all is
              pretty stupidly funny.
                \_ you can get a good idea of where Malkin is coming from
                   just by reading her blog for a while
                   http://www.michellemalkin.com .  I really doubt she
                   woke up one morning and thought "The Japanese
                   internment was good for the motherland in ww2.  I must
                   correct this historical misunderstanding and write
                   a book!"   - danh
                   \_ She excoriates Delta Airlines for booting a non-paying
                      soldier from a flight in favor of a paying customer with
                      a ticket.  I wonder what she has to say about Halliburton
                      serving spoiled food to US troops.
                \_ it's very smart of the BCR boys.  they know if they
                   invite some nutcase who writes a book about how
                   the Japanese American internment was not motivated
                   by racism at all and actually helped the ww2 war effort,
                   she gets some more laughs by claiming they showed
                   up voluntarily and that over half of the camp detainees
                   were non Japanese, that people will get pissed
                   off and show up and shout a lot.  then the BCR
                   people and their unholy David Horowitz zombie masters
                   can include wild eyed photos of Berkeley liberals
                   in their next fundraising newsletter. - danh
                   \_ Americans of German and Italian descent were not ordered
                      to report to their nearest detention facility
                        \_ They were in the UK.  -John
                      \_ The Germans and Italians didn't attack American land
                         in the Atlantic, nor did they have any sort of naval
                         capability to do so (U-boats were ship-to-ship
                         weapons); only a handful of battleships/cruisers,
                         no real amphibious force, and no aircraft carriers
                         \_ The point was to clarify the "over half of the
                            camp detainees were non Japanese".  Those
                            individuals didn't have to be there if they were
                            American citizens and didn't break any laws,
                            unlike American citizens of Japanese descent.
                            In any case, if it floats your boat to say that
                            it was right to detain all Americans of Japanese
                            descent because the Japanese COULD have invaded
                            the U.S. and Japanese-Americans COULD turn traitor
                            and spy for the enemey, and innocent Japanese-
                            Americans had to be detained in the interest of the
                            greater good, so be it, but I want to hear you say
                            it.  So far all I'm getting is "what about this,
                            what about that", "I can understand why they did
                            that", but no "They were right to intern Japanese-
                            Americans!"
                            \_ Not to defend what was done, but put yourself
                               in the position of the guy who made that
                               decision the other way, "we won't intern", on
                               8 Dec 1941. Then a Japanese invasion force
                               arrives in 1942 and is aided by some Japanese-
                               Americans. Internment was the conservative
                               (and in retrospect, unnecessary) thing to do.
                               \_ Japanese emigration has long been funded
                                  in part by the War Ministry and ultimately
                                  became a national policy in 1932.  In
                                  Manchuria, for example, the line between
                                  Japanese immigrant farmer and the military
                                  has always been somewhat blurry.  The May
                                  15th incident, where elements of the Japanese

                                  Army assasinated the local Chinese warlord,
                                  involved participation by emigre Japanese
                                  farmers.  The Japanese Kwantung Army also
                                  drew recruits and support from Japanese
                                  emigres in China.
                                  \_ I am not sure if you could equate Japanese
                                     emigration to Manchuria with emigration
                                     to US.  Since 1895, and even before, Japan
                                     had wanted to make Manchuria part
                                     of the Japanese Empire.  I don't believe
                                     you can say the same for emigrants to the
                                     US.
                                     \_ Yes, I am sure a different department
                                        in the War Ministry handled US
                                        emigration.
                                        \_ Japanese also emigrated to SE Asia
                                           to work as prostitutes.  I am sure
                                           the War Ministry had a hand in that
                                           too.  Not to mention emigration to
                                           Peru, etc.
                                           \_ Now, I am sure you are aware
                                              of the logical fallacy in your
                                              prostitution claim.
                                              \_ no I am not, please
                                                 enlighten.
                                                 \_ Emigration for prostitution
                                                    is different than emigration
                                                    for more legitimate reasons.
                                                    \_ If prostitutes managed to
                                                       emigrate without the
                                                       War Ministry's blessing,
                                                       so could other people,
                                                       (for instance, people
                                                       who emigrated to
                                                       escape poverty)
                                                       which puts a big hole
                                                       in your theory that
                                                       Japanese emigrants all
                                                       emigrated in the service
                                                       of Imperial Japan's
                                                       interests.
                                                       \_ Again, the logical
                                                          fallacies fly hard
                                                          and fast.  1. I
                                                          never said *all*
                                                          immigrants were in
                                                          the service of
                                                          Imperial Japan.
                                                          2. That all Japanese
                                                          emigre prostitutes
                                                          were unsupported by
                                                          the Japanese govner-
                                                          ment does not imply
                                                          that no other Japanese
                                                          emigres were supported
                                                          by the government.
                                     \_ Was there ever a country invaded by
                                        the Japanese in WW2 where the local
                                        Japanese immigrants did not provide
                                        material or logistic support to the
                                        invading force?
                                        \_ what are the countries where the
                                           local Japanese did provide
                                           support?  China?  Where else?
                                           \_ Korea, Hong Kong, Taiwan that I
                                              know of.  Now please come up with
                                              the counter examples.
                                              \_ I am not aware of many Japanese
                                                 in Hong Kong when the Japanese
                                                 invaded.  Taiwan was
                                                 a Japanese colony since 1895.
                                                 As for Korea, are you talking
                                                 about about Korea before or
                                                 after it became a Japanese
                                                 colony.  If after, it's
                                                 irrelevant.
                                  \_ Hello, loser:  You have just written
                                     "what about this, what about that".  I am
                                     looking for "They were right to intern
                                     Japanese-Americans".
                                     \_ It's so easy to speak from your
                                        air-conditioned office in front of
                                        a computer.  I envy you your
                                        innocence.
                                        \_ It's so easy to speak from your
                                           air-conditioned office in front of
                                           a computer.  I don't envy your lack
                                           of reading comprehension.
                                           I am looking for "They were right to
                                           intern Japanese-Americans".
                                           If you think that way, just write
                                           it down!  If you don't, write
                                           that down too!  All I'm getting is
                                           "I can understand why they did
                                           that" and "what about this, what
                                           about that".
                                           \_ If I knew what I would have
                                              known then, I would have done
                                              the same thing.
                                              \_ In hindsight, was it the right
                                                 thing to do?
                                                 \_ Hard to say.  I will
                                                    allow that some innocents
                                                    were caught up in the
                                                    internment.  Will I say
                                                    that everyone interned
                                                    were wrongly so?  No.
                                                    Would some of those
                                                    interned have provided
                                                    aid to the Japanese had
                                                    they the opportunity to
                                                    do so?  I suspect so.
                                                    Is the harm prevented
                                                    greater than the harm
                                                    created?  I don't know.
                                                    \_ You know you are being
                                                       misleading when you
                                                       say "some" innocents
                                                       were caught up in the
                                                       internment?
                                                       \_ What's so misleading
                                                          about "some"?  I
                                                          think "some" is
                                                          somewhere between
                                                          none and all.  Would
                                                          I believe that "most"
                                                          of the Japanese
                                                          immigrants here would
                                                          have provided aid
                                                          to a Japanese invasion
                                                          force?  Yes.
                                                        _/
                [Keep in mind we are talking about American citizens of
                Japanese descent, not non-citizen Japanese residents]
                Lieutenant Commander Kenneth Ringle, a naval intelligence
                officer tasked with evaluating the loyalty of the Japanese
                American population, estimated in a 1941 report to his
                superiors that "better than 90% of the Nisei [second
                generation] and 75% of the original immigrants were completely
                loyal to the United States." A 1941 report prepared on
                Roosevelt's orders by Curtis B. Munson, special representative
                of the State Department, concluded that most Japanese nationals
                and "90 to 98 percent" of Japanese American citizens were
                loyal. He wrote: "There is no Japanese `problem' on the Coast
                ... There is far more danger from Communists and people of the
                Bridges type on the Coast than there is from Japanese."
                \_ Who are "people of the Bridges type"?
                   \_ Guess first, then read:
                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Bridges
                \_ You mean this report?  http://csua.org/u/8z4
                   This is just the first thing google popped up searching
                   for "ringle japan".  It certainly does not say what you
                   claimed in your post.  Your URL please?
                   \_ http://csua.org/u/8z5 (Amazon.com page scan)
                      Read the rest of the page, and the next page, too.
                      Note that the point I am trying to convey to you is that
                      the vast majority of American citizens of Japanese
                      descent were loyal and were no threat to America.
                      \_ Actually, you meant the page before your reference.
                         Yours was a quote of Ringle.  Now I refer you to
                         mine, which is a part of the Ringle report itself
                         (http://csua.org/u/8z4  Where his conclusion is
                         3% (or 3500 people) are actively dangerous.
        \_ why it makes sense to order all Americans citizens of Japanese
           descent to report to your nearest detention facility!
        \_ All Americans of Arab descent will report to your nearest
           re-education facility, to be held until the War On Terror
           is over.
           \_ the scary thing is, this could very well happen.
              \_ I doubt it.  More likely is lots of Arabs are questioned
                 by the feds and iffy ones are surveiled, as if that might not
                 already be happening.  100% detention of any ethnic group
                 in America is highly unlikely, because of our prior experience
                 in this area with Japanese-American internment.
                 Yes, even if there is a nuclear detonation, I doubt there will
                 be 100% detention of American citizens of Arab descent,
                 although there will certainly be plenty of hate crimes.
2021/10/25 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
10/25   

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dailycal.org/article.php?id=16037
Calling these policies necessary for national security during wartime, Malkin, an author and Fox News Channel commentator, said civil libertarians use the internment card too much, drawing on Japanese internment to counter current racial profiling practices. Misguided guilt about the past continues to hamper our ability to prevent future terrorist attacks, she said. Drawing on her research of government documents, exhibits and textbooks, Malkin said that nearly half of World War II internees were European, which she said is glossed over in textbooks. Malkin also said there was a serious threat of Japanese invasion, pointing to intercepted intelligence messages describing Japanese government officials in Los Angeles, San Francisco and Honolulu monitoring military shipments into West Coast. Malkin tries to fill in what she said is left out of school books in her controversial new book, In Defense of Internment: The Case for Racial Profiling in World War II and the War on Terror. Malkin was met with nearly 75 students and activists gathered in front of Dwinelle Hall holding fliers and picket signs, some not only protesting her visit but also the Bush administration and budget cuts. Its harmful to spread this type of ideology, to justify racial profiling, said Evonne Lai, co-chair of the Asian Pacific Council, who was protesting Malkins book. Some students were skeptical of the facts presented in her book. The thesis of Malkins book is not only factually incorrect but dangerous dangerous in our current political situation and incredibly insensitive to the victims of this denial of justice, said junior Matt Tokeshi. Dozens hoping to hear Malkin speak, including many demonstrators, were shut out of the full auditorium. With chants of shame seeping in from outside of the room and protesters banging on the door, Malkin had to stop her speech periodically to be heard. The real shame is that people are too close-minded to consider the evidence I have, Malkin said, adding they dont understand what a liberal education truly is. Malkin emphasized she did not advocate rounding up all Arabs and Muslims and tossing them into camps. The inconveniences of profiling should not be any reason to hinder national security, she said. Inconveniences are preferable to being incinerated at an office desk by a flaming, hijacked plane, she said, which elicited cheers from the audience. Wartime profiling has nothing to do with prejudice, she said. Malkin also said she should not be classified as a right-wing pundit, adding she is critical of the Bush administration's profiling measures. There are profiling measures already built into our laws ... I think the Bush administration bears responsibility for these failures. Some students from Berkeley College Republicans, which sponsored the event, said Malkin presented enough evidence to back up her claims. I do agree with her point on racial profiling, said Amaury Gallais, president of BCR. Its a very important practice that we need to put in place in order to improve our national security.
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www.michellemalkin.com
headline in the news section of the San Francisco Chronicle referred to me as a "right-wing pundit." In last night's speech I mused that if New York Times columnist Maureen Dowd came to the Bay Area, no Chronicle headline would refer to her as a "left-wing pundit." Many thanks to the Berkeley College Republicans and those who came, and heartfelt apologies to the hundreds of supporters who could not get in to the lecture hall due to the limited number of seats. Today, I'm flying to Los Angeles to speak at USC Law School. Friday, I'll be signing books at Borders Books in Puyallup, Wash. My American University speech, which was scheduled for Monday, September 13, has been cancelled. My host, the AU College Republicans, informed me yesterday that "because of the issue of Japanese internment, our club is taking a lot of flack from the Administration here at American University. In so many words or less, our future funding is in serious jeapordy (sic)." 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Ron Radosh Thank you, Mr Radosh, for demonstrating what academic fair-mindedness is really all about. September 07, 2004 07:17 AM How did Delta Airlines and one its passengers treat a Marine trying to get home for her child's second birthday while on a short leave from Iraq? Excerpt: This letter is to the young female soldier from Benton, who I had the privilege to meet this past Friday evening as we were both trying to get home to Arkansas. Returning from a business trip to New Jersey, I was changing planes in Cincinnati when we met. I had just boarded Delta Flight 6281 (operated by Chautauqua Airlines, a Delta Connection Carrier), Delta's last flight of the evening to Little Rock, when you came onboard and sat down in front of me. I, along with other passengers who had already boarded, listened while you shared your story with us. six months in Iraq, you were traveling home to Arkansas. While in Iraq, you had been under enemy fire frequently - on many occasions, several times a day. 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When I inquired as to whether you were aware that the individual who had previously been in "your seat" was a soldier traveling home from Iraq on leave to see her family, your verbatim response was, "So what I'm a victim from Chicago! It was apparent that you have no appreciation for your fellow Americans who leave home and family and risk their lives wearing the uniform of the United States military. When I, along with several others onboard, approached the Chautauqua flight attendant volunteering to giv...
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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Bridges
International Longshore and Warehouse Union (ILWU), a union which he helped form and where he served as president for over 40 years. Born in Melbourne Australia, Bridges went to sea at age 16 as a merchant seaman. He entered the United States in 1920, becoming a naturalized citizen in 1945. Industrial Workers of the World (IWW), participating in a nationwide seamen's strike. His early experiences in the IWW would influence his beliefs on militant unionism based on rank and file power and involvement. In 1932 he became spokesperson for a group of dockers who promoted unionism in the maritime industry. A year later, SF longshoremen received their first ILA charter, but the employers refused to negotiate a contract. This led to the strike of 1934, an affair known as "Bloody Thursday" because two strikers lost their lives and many were injured from police violence. general strike of all San Francisco workers leading to a coastwise agreement, union hiring halls, shorter hours, safer working conditions, and a pay increase. In 1937 the ILWU was formed out of a split from the ILA. Congress of Industrial Organizations (CIO) but was expelled in 1950 during the Cold War era anti-Communist witch-hunts. Bridges believed that the ILWU should be a union completely free and open to membership by all, regardless of race, nationality, or belief. In 1939 the United States government attempted to deport Bridges, accusing him of being a communist, a charge that would haunt him for several years. On July 28 2001, on what would have been Bridges' 100th birthday, the ILWU organized a week long event celebrating the life of Harry Bridges. This culminated in a march of over 8000 unionists and supporters across the Vincent Thomas Bridge from Terminal Island to San Pedro California. The longshormen shut down the port for 8 hours in honor of Bridges.
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Commander KD Ringle, USN, and sent to the Chief of Naval Operations on the doho problem. This letter was made available to the deliberations of the Commission on Wartime Relocation and Internment of Civilians, but was deleted from the final CWRIC Report and Findings (See page 215, American and Japanese Relocation in World War II; Fact, Fiction & Fallacy, Lillian Baker, Webb Research Group, Medford, 1990). is a portion of the RINGLE REPORT that was delected from CWRIC Report and Findings. This accounts for the letter consisting of subparagraphs. A True Copy BIO/KD/KF37/A8-5 Serial LA/1055/re 26 JAN 1942 DECLASSIFIED (Previously classified CONFIDENTIAL) From: LIEUTENANT COMMANDER KD RINGLE, USN To: The Chief of Naval Operations Via: The Commandant, Eleventh Naval District Subject: Japanese Question, Report on That of the Japanese-born alien residents, the large majority are at least passively loyal to the United States. That is, they would knowingly do nothing whatever to the injury of the United States, but at the same time would not do anything to the injury of Japan. Also, most of the remainder would not engage in active sabotage or insurrection, but might well do surreptitious observation work for Japanese interests if given a convenient opportunity. That, however, there are among the Japanese both alien and United States citizens, certain individuals, either deliberately placed by the Japanese government or actuated by a fanatical loyalty to that country, who would act as saboteurs or agents. This number is estimated to be less than three percent of the total, or about 3,500 in the entire United States. Black Dragon Society, the Kaigun Kyokai (Navy League), or the Hoirusha Kai (Military Service Man's League), or affiliated groups. The membership of these groups is already fairly well known to the Naval Intelligence Service or the Federal Bureau of Investigation and should be immediately placed in custodial detention, irrespective of whether they are alien or citizen. That in spite of paragraph above, the most potentially dangerous element of all are those American citizens of Japanese ancestry who have spent the formative years of their lives, from 10 to 20, in Japan and have returned to the United States to claim their legal American citizenship within the last few years. Those people are essentially and inherently Japanese and may have been deliberately sent back to the United States by the Japanese government to act as agents. In spite of their legal citizenship and the protection afforded them by the Bill of Rights, they should be looked upon as enemy aliens and many of them placed in custodial detention. This group numbers between 600 and 700 in the Los Angeles metropolitan area and at least that many in other parts of Southern California. Contact / Stats August 3, 1996: web page established, 0 visitors.
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