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| 7/10 |
| 2004/9/9 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:33428 Activity:very high |
9/8 So after the happy siege, the russians are now saying they will
launch preemptive strikes against terrorist bases anywhere in the
world. Interesting, that. -- ilyas
\_ Their big terrorist problem is right there and always has been:
Chechnya. Putin said he would solve Chechnya five years ago.
All he is doing now is trying to look like he's in control; there's
no new policy as far as I can tell.
\_ Well, I ll give them a year or five. If the russians are serious,
I look forward to the world's reaction to russian 'unilateralism'
with great amusement. -- ilyas
I'll look forward to the world's reaction to russian
'unilateralism' with great amusement. -- ilyas
\_ The UN has already washed its hands of the Chechnya problem,
so don't expect any 'unilateralism' comments on activities
in Chechnya. The Iraq problem, OTOH, was being handled by
an international coalition. The US decided to break with
that coalition and the policy of containment. Hence the
term 'unilateral.' Ilya, you're smarter than this. Are
you just bored?
\_ I am sorry, did you miss what russia actually said?
Preemptive strikes against bases _anywhere on earth_.
Not strikes in Chechnya which is old news, and no one
cares. At this point, the rhetoric itself is amusing me
to no end, since it's, you know, American rhetoric.
On a slightly unrelated note, comments like 'Ilya, you're
smarter than this' are the flip side of the coin with
'You are an idiot' printed on the front. It's a bland
tom holubesque insult slightly sugar coated. You need to
work on your habit of going after the man reflexively as a
conclusion to anything. I mean this is the motd so it's
ok, but in real life people will sort of stare at you.
-- ilyas
\_ Putin == Strong Soviet Leader!
Americans are with the Chechen terrorists, just like
supporting the Afghanistan insurgents!
\_ Containment? In what way was the Oil For Stuff program
containing anything? Who was doing this containment?
France, Germany, and Russia all had multi-billion dollar
deals with Hussein. They sure as hell weren't helping
to contain anything. Are you talking about Guam or
something?
\_ Containing Saddam from being a threat to his neighbors,
and to us from the possibility of his giving WMDs to
terrorists. Bush incorrectly concluded he had WMDs
because the CIA is supposed to be smarter than him and
he thought that was fine. The world was still looking
at a highly circumstantial American case. And Saddam
was not a threat to his neighbors. Are you a total
ignoramus?
\_ http://www.counterpunch.org/leopold06272003.html
Both the CIA and The State Dept said we had him
contained just fine.
\_ Apparently the CIA's opinion changed after 9/11.
They didn't want Saddam on TV saying, "Take that
stupid Americans" and the CIA not having said
anything.
\_ "And frankly [the sanctions] have worked. He has not
developed any significant capability with respect to
weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project
conventional power against his neighbors. So in
effect, our policies have strengthened the security
of the neighbors of Iraq..." -- Secretary Powell,
24 Feb 2001 ... So containment was working until 9/11
at which point Bush had an excuse to invade Iraq.
\_ Dubya wasn't listening to Powell after 9/11.
He was listening to the CIA, "no doubt" Cheney,
and "slam-dunk" Tenet.
\_ And you expected dramatic action a week later? A week later the
US was still looking for a target and making speeches.
\_ Listen, dufus: The U.S. had an obvious enemy in Afghanistan,
and had not done anything yet. Russia has been stomping all
over Chechnya for the last five years and more.
\_ It is quite understandable that Russians would use this siege
as an excuse to go after Chechens with links to sesessionalists in
as an excuse to go after Chechen sesessionalist leaders living in
other countries. A number of Chechen leaders have received political
assylum in Europe and Middle east. They might or might not be linked
to Chechen terrorism. They all deny charges of terrorism but Russia
claims they all have links to terrorists and demands their
extradictions. No credible evidence of terrorist links has been
extraditions. No credible evidence of terrorist links has been
presented so far and the Russian requests have been frowned upon. A
few months ago, a Chechen ex-president who was living in Qatar was
assassinated. Qatari intelligence services with the help of CIA
quickly traced the assassination to the Russian special services.
Two russian agents have been convicted and sentensed to life in
prison in Qatar. Russians tried denying any involvment but the
evidence was overwhelming. What Russians are now saying is that what
happened in Beslan gives them a moral right to go after Chechen
leaders living in other countries. Europeans aren't buying this
argument.
\_ Will the Europeans bring it to the UN when their people start
getting blown up on a regular basis? Or just knuckle under and
elect socialists like Spain who will turtle them up until it's
too late? The Islamic world has been fighting against the west
for a thousand years. They still are. It is only now that some
Western nations have come to realise this.
\_ Which I guess goes to show how bad the Islamic World is
at warfare these days.
\_ http://strange.timetrip.net/?entry=throwrocks -John
\_ Would you mind giving a summary of this? I
don't like to watch videos at work.
\_ It's about 20 seconds long. Sight-gag, largely.
\_ A thousand years? The Islamic world? Using the same
broad generalizations that fuel statements like those, the
Poles are part of an economic powerhouse and empire that
has been enslaving and exploiting the third world for 500
years, and Laos is part of a technological revolution.
\_ The Poles don't make speeches to this day about how they
will be retaking Spain.
\_ When the Europeans start being blown up, then the right
thing to do would be to go after the terrorists and I am
sure they well. But my point was that it generally appears
that Russia is pursuing its own political goals by going
after the Chechen leadership in exile. For example,
when Russia presented the "evidence" that Aslan Maskhadov's
representative, Ahmed Zakaev, is a terrorist, the British
laughed so hard that they gave him a political assylum.
\_ So it is ok for EU to sit back until they're getting blown
up, too? Then going after terrorists will be ok? The
British have opened the doors and provided legal
protection to all sorts of vicious evil human garbage.
The Brits giving asylum to someone means little.
\_ That's the whole point. The Europeans are not getting
blown up, nor will they be, because they are no longer
imperialists nor do they support Isreal unblinkingly.
America still cannot admit to itself that these attacks
are the inevitable results of imperial policies. |
| 7/10 |
|
| www.counterpunch.org/leopold06272003.html New Print Edition of CounterPunch Available Exclusively to Subscribers: Cockburn on Howard Dean, Serf of Capital: Look Before You Leap; Clair on the Crimes of Boeing: Make Shoddy Planes, Lie to Regulators, Discriminate Against Blacks and Women, Get Billions in Contracts; Peter Linebaugh: The Blitz and the Rosenbergs: How I Came to Oppose the Death Penalty; Christine TenBarge: A Report from Chicago on the New Peace Movement; Fowl Reports: 60 Minutes Gets Egg on Its Face Over Terror Chickens. Remember, the CounterPunch website is supported exclusively by subscribers to our newsletter. Our worldwide web audience is soaring, with more than 60,000 visitors a day. com June 27, 2003 Contaiment Was Working CIA: Seven Months Before 9/11, the Agency Said Iraq Posed No Threat to the US By JASON LEOPOLD Seven months before two-dozen or so al-Qaida terrorists hijacked four commercial airplanes and flew three of the aircrafts directly into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon on September 11, 2001, killing 3,000 innocent civilians, CIA Director George Tenet, testified before Congress that Iraq posed no immediate threat to the United States or to other countries in the Middle East. But immediately after the terrorist attacks on 9-11, which the Bush administration claims Iraq is partially responsible for, the President and his advisers were already making a case for war against Iraq without so much as providing a shred of evidence to back up the allegations that Iraq and its former President, Saddam Hussein, was aware of the attacks or helped the al-Qaida hijackers plan the catastrophe. The Bush administration seized upon the reports to build public support for the war and used the information to eventually justify a preemptive strike against the country in March even though much of the information in the CIA report has since been disputed. In just seven short months, beginning as early as February 2001, Bush administration officials said Iraq went from being a threat only to its own people to posing an imminent threat to the world. But Rumsfeld testified before the House Armed Services Committee on Sept. He has, at this moment, stockpiles chemical and biological weapons, and is pursuing nuclear weapons." Rumsfeld never offered any evidence to support his claims, but his dire warnings of a nuclear catastrophe caused by Saddam Hussein was enough to convince most lawmakers, both Democrat and Republican, that Saddam's Iraq was doomed. Shortly after his remarks before the House Armed Services Committee, Congress passed a resolution authorizing President Bush to use "all appropriate means" to remove Saddam from power. Two months have passed since the US invaded Iraq and not a spec of anthrax nor any other deadly chemical or biological weapon has been found. US military forces have searched more than 300 sites but have turned up nothing substantial. Lawmakers are now questioning whether the intelligence information gathered by the CIA was accurate or whether the Bush administration manipulated and or exaggerated the intelligence to make a case for war. However, intelligence reports released by the CIA and more than 100 interviews top officials in the Bush administration, such as Secretary of State Colin Powell, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, gave to various Senate and Congressional committees and media outlets prior to 9-11 show that the US never believed Saddam Hussein to be an imminent threat other than to his own people. Moreover, the CIA reported in February 2001 that Iraq was "probably" pursuing chemical and biological weapons programs but that it had no direct evidence that Iraq actually had actually obtained such weapons. "We assess that since the suspension of (United Nations) inspections in December of 1998, Baghdad has had the capability to reinitiate both its (chemical and biological weapons) programs... without an inspection monitoring program, however, it is more difficult to determine if Iraq has done so." "Moreover, the automated video monitoring systems installed by the UN at known and suspect WMD facilities in Iraq are still not operating," according to the 2001 CIA report. "Having lost this on-the-ground access, it is more difficult for the UN or the US to accurately assess the current state of Iraq's WMD programs." Ironically, in the February 2001 report, Tenet said Osama bin Laden and his al-Qaida terrorist network remain the single greatest threat to US interests here and abroad. Tenet eerily describes in the report a scenario that six months later would become a reality. "Terrorists are also becoming more operationally adept and more technically sophisticated in order to defeat counter-terrorism measures. For example, as we have increased security around government and military facilities, terrorists are seeking out "softer" targets that provide opportunities for mass casualties. Employing increasingly advanced devices and using strategies such as simultaneous attacks, the number of people killed ... Usama bin Ladin and his global network of lieutenants and associates remain the most immediate and serious threat. Since 1998, Bin Ladin has declared all US citizens legitimate targets of attack. As shown by the bombing of our embassies in Africa in 1998 and his Millennium plots last year, he is capable of planning multiple attacks with little or no warning," Tenet said. However, Tenet only briefly discussed the al-Qaida threat and devoted the bulk of his testimony on how to deal with the threat of rogue countries such as North Korea, Syria, Iran and Iraq. Six months later, Bin Laden was identified as the mastermind behind 9-11. Between 1998 and early 2002, the CIA's reports on the so-called terror threat offered no details on what types of chemical and biological weapons that Iraq obtained. when the CIA issued another report that this time included details of Iraq's alleged vast chemical and biological weapons. The October 2002 CIA report into Iraq's WMD identifies sarin, mustard gas, VX and numerous other chemical weapons that the CIA claims Iraq had been stockpiling over the years, in stark contrast to earlier reports by Tenet that said the agency had no evidence to support such claims. And unlike testimony Tenet gave a year earlier, in which he said the CIA had no direct evidence of Iraq's WMD programs, the intelligence information in the 2002 report, Tenet said, is rock solid. The CIA would not comment on the differing reports between 2001 and 2002 or how the agency was able to obtain such intelligence information and corroborate it so quickly. Still, in early 2001, while hardliners in the Bush administration were privately discussing ways to remove Saddam Hussein from power, Secretary of State Powell said the US successfully "contained" Iraq in the years since the first Gulf War and that because of economic sanctions placed on the country Iraq was unable to obtain WMD "We have been able to keep weapons from going into Iraq," Powell said during a Feb 11, 2001 interview with "Face the Nation. "We have been able to keep the sanctions in place to the extent that items that might support weapons of mass destruction development have had some controls on them... Saddam's "forces are about one-third their original size. "Containment has been a successful policy, and I think we should make sure that we continue it until such time as Saddam Hussein comes into compliance with the agreements he made at the end of the (Gulf) war." Powell added that Iraq is "not threatening America," but in a separate interview with ABC's Sam Donaldson on Feb. |
| strange.timetrip.net/?entry=throwrocks net - After holding a job for a few years, you amass a collection of stuff that you found on the web or got sent to you that is downright funny. This is my gathering place for the stuff that has struck my fancy. |