Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 33428
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2025/07/10 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
7/10    

2004/9/9 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:33428 Activity:very high
9/8     So after the happy siege, the russians are now saying they will
        launch preemptive strikes against terrorist bases anywhere in the
        world.  Interesting, that. -- ilyas
        \_ Their big terrorist problem is right there and always has been:
           Chechnya.  Putin said he would solve Chechnya five years ago.
           All he is doing now is trying to look like he's in control; there's
           no new policy as far as I can tell.
           \_ Well, I ll give them a year or five.  If the russians are serious,
              I look forward to the world's reaction to russian 'unilateralism'
              with great amusement. -- ilyas
              I'll look forward to the world's reaction to russian
              'unilateralism' with great amusement. -- ilyas
              \_ The UN has already washed its hands of the Chechnya problem,
                 so don't expect any 'unilateralism' comments on activities
                 in Chechnya.  The Iraq problem, OTOH, was being handled by
                 an international coalition.  The US decided to break with
                 that coalition and the policy of containment. Hence the
                 term 'unilateral.'  Ilya, you're smarter than this. Are
                 you just bored?
                 \_ I am sorry, did you miss what russia actually said?
                    Preemptive strikes against bases _anywhere on earth_.
                    Not strikes in Chechnya which is old news, and no one
                    cares.  At this point, the rhetoric itself is amusing me
                    to no end, since it's, you know, American rhetoric.
                    On a slightly unrelated note, comments like 'Ilya, you're
                    smarter than this' are the flip side of the coin with
                    'You are an idiot' printed on the front.  It's a bland
                    tom holubesque insult slightly sugar coated.  You need to
                    work on your habit of going after the man reflexively as a
                    conclusion to anything.  I mean this is the motd so it's
                    ok, but in real life people will sort of stare at you.
                      -- ilyas
                    \_ Putin == Strong Soviet Leader!
                       Americans are with the Chechen terrorists, just like
                       supporting the Afghanistan insurgents!
                 \_ Containment?  In what way was the Oil For Stuff program
                    containing anything?  Who was doing this containment?
                    France, Germany, and Russia all had multi-billion dollar
                    deals with Hussein.  They sure as hell weren't helping
                    to contain anything.  Are you talking about Guam or
                    something?
                    \_ Containing Saddam from being a threat to his neighbors,
                       and to us from the possibility of his giving WMDs to
                       terrorists.  Bush incorrectly concluded he had WMDs
                       because the CIA is supposed to be smarter than him and
                       he thought that was fine.  The world was still looking
                       at a highly circumstantial American case.  And Saddam
                       was not a threat to his neighbors.  Are you a total
                       ignoramus?
                    \_ http://www.counterpunch.org/leopold06272003.html
                       Both the CIA and The State Dept said we had him
                       contained just fine.
                       \_ Apparently the CIA's opinion changed after 9/11.
                          They didn't want Saddam on TV saying, "Take that
                          stupid Americans" and the CIA not having said
                          anything.
                    \_ "And frankly [the sanctions] have worked. He has not
                        developed any significant capability with respect to
                        weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project
                        conventional power against his neighbors. So in
                        effect, our policies have strengthened the security
                        of the neighbors of Iraq..." -- Secretary Powell,
                        24 Feb 2001 ... So containment was working until 9/11
                        at which point Bush had an excuse to invade Iraq.
                        \_ Dubya wasn't listening to Powell after 9/11.
                           He was listening to the CIA, "no doubt" Cheney,
                           and "slam-dunk" Tenet.
           \_ And you expected dramatic action a week later?  A week later the
              US was still looking for a target and making speeches.
              \_ Listen, dufus:  The U.S. had an obvious enemy in Afghanistan,
                 and had not done anything yet.  Russia has been stomping all
                 over Chechnya for the last five years and more.
        \_ It is quite understandable that Russians would use this siege
           as an excuse to go after Chechens with links to sesessionalists in
           as an excuse to go after Chechen sesessionalist leaders living in
           other countries. A number of Chechen leaders have received political
           assylum in Europe and Middle east. They might or might not be linked
           to Chechen terrorism. They all deny charges of terrorism but Russia
           claims they all have links to terrorists and demands their
           extradictions. No credible evidence of terrorist links has been
           extraditions. No credible evidence of terrorist links has been
           presented so far and the Russian requests have been frowned upon.  A
           few months ago, a Chechen ex-president who was living in Qatar was
           assassinated. Qatari intelligence services with the help of CIA
           quickly traced the assassination to the Russian special services.
           Two russian agents have been convicted and sentensed to life in
           prison in Qatar. Russians tried denying any involvment but the
           evidence was overwhelming. What Russians are now saying is that what
           happened in Beslan gives them a moral right to go after Chechen
           leaders living in other countries.  Europeans aren't buying this
           argument.
           \_ Will the Europeans bring it to the UN when their people start
              getting blown up on a regular basis?  Or just knuckle under and
              elect socialists like Spain who will turtle them up until it's
              too late?  The Islamic world has been fighting against the west
              for a thousand years.  They still are.  It is only now that some
              Western nations have come to realise this.
              \_ Which I guess goes to show how bad the Islamic World is
                 at warfare these days.
                 \_ http://strange.timetrip.net/?entry=throwrocks  -John
                    \_ Would you mind giving a summary of this?  I
                       don't like to watch videos at work.
                       \_ It's about 20 seconds long.  Sight-gag, largely.
              \_ A thousand years?  The Islamic world?  Using the same
                 broad generalizations that fuel statements like those, the
                 Poles are part of an economic powerhouse and empire that
                 has been enslaving and exploiting the third world for 500
                 years, and Laos is part of a technological revolution.
                 \_ The Poles don't make speeches to this day about how they
                    will be retaking Spain.
              \_ When the Europeans start being blown up, then the right
                 thing to do would be to go after the terrorists and I am
                 sure they well. But my point was that it generally appears
                 that Russia is pursuing its own political goals by going
                 after the Chechen leadership in exile. For example,
                 when Russia presented the "evidence" that Aslan Maskhadov's
                 representative, Ahmed Zakaev, is a terrorist, the British
                 laughed so hard that they gave him a political assylum.
                 \_ So it is ok for EU to sit back until they're getting blown
                    up, too?  Then going after terrorists will be ok?  The
                    British have opened the doors and provided legal
                    protection to all sorts of vicious evil human garbage.
                    The Brits giving asylum to someone means little.
              \_ That's the whole point. The Europeans are not getting
                 blown up, nor will they be, because they are no longer
                 imperialists nor do they support Isreal unblinkingly.
                 America still cannot admit to itself that these attacks
                 are the inevitable results of imperial policies.
2025/07/10 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
7/10    

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2010/1/4-19 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:53611 Activity:moderate
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www.counterpunch.org/leopold06272003.html
New Print Edition of CounterPunch Available Exclusively to Subscribers: Cockburn on Howard Dean, Serf of Capital: Look Before You Leap; Clair on the Crimes of Boeing: Make Shoddy Planes, Lie to Regulators, Discriminate Against Blacks and Women, Get Billions in Contracts; Peter Linebaugh: The Blitz and the Rosenbergs: How I Came to Oppose the Death Penalty; Christine TenBarge: A Report from Chicago on the New Peace Movement; Fowl Reports: 60 Minutes Gets Egg on Its Face Over Terror Chickens. Remember, the CounterPunch website is supported exclusively by subscribers to our newsletter. Our worldwide web audience is soaring, with more than 60,000 visitors a day. com June 27, 2003 Contaiment Was Working CIA: Seven Months Before 9/11, the Agency Said Iraq Posed No Threat to the US By JASON LEOPOLD Seven months before two-dozen or so al-Qaida terrorists hijacked four commercial airplanes and flew three of the aircrafts directly into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon on September 11, 2001, killing 3,000 innocent civilians, CIA Director George Tenet, testified before Congress that Iraq posed no immediate threat to the United States or to other countries in the Middle East. But immediately after the terrorist attacks on 9-11, which the Bush administration claims Iraq is partially responsible for, the President and his advisers were already making a case for war against Iraq without so much as providing a shred of evidence to back up the allegations that Iraq and its former President, Saddam Hussein, was aware of the attacks or helped the al-Qaida hijackers plan the catastrophe. The Bush administration seized upon the reports to build public support for the war and used the information to eventually justify a preemptive strike against the country in March even though much of the information in the CIA report has since been disputed. In just seven short months, beginning as early as February 2001, Bush administration officials said Iraq went from being a threat only to its own people to posing an imminent threat to the world. But Rumsfeld testified before the House Armed Services Committee on Sept. He has, at this moment, stockpiles chemical and biological weapons, and is pursuing nuclear weapons." Rumsfeld never offered any evidence to support his claims, but his dire warnings of a nuclear catastrophe caused by Saddam Hussein was enough to convince most lawmakers, both Democrat and Republican, that Saddam's Iraq was doomed. Shortly after his remarks before the House Armed Services Committee, Congress passed a resolution authorizing President Bush to use "all appropriate means" to remove Saddam from power. Two months have passed since the US invaded Iraq and not a spec of anthrax nor any other deadly chemical or biological weapon has been found. US military forces have searched more than 300 sites but have turned up nothing substantial. Lawmakers are now questioning whether the intelligence information gathered by the CIA was accurate or whether the Bush administration manipulated and or exaggerated the intelligence to make a case for war. However, intelligence reports released by the CIA and more than 100 interviews top officials in the Bush administration, such as Secretary of State Colin Powell, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, gave to various Senate and Congressional committees and media outlets prior to 9-11 show that the US never believed Saddam Hussein to be an imminent threat other than to his own people. Moreover, the CIA reported in February 2001 that Iraq was "probably" pursuing chemical and biological weapons programs but that it had no direct evidence that Iraq actually had actually obtained such weapons. "We assess that since the suspension of (United Nations) inspections in December of 1998, Baghdad has had the capability to reinitiate both its (chemical and biological weapons) programs... without an inspection monitoring program, however, it is more difficult to determine if Iraq has done so." 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Employing increasingly advanced devices and using strategies such as simultaneous attacks, the number of people killed ... Usama bin Ladin and his global network of lieutenants and associates remain the most immediate and serious threat. Since 1998, Bin Ladin has declared all US citizens legitimate targets of attack. As shown by the bombing of our embassies in Africa in 1998 and his Millennium plots last year, he is capable of planning multiple attacks with little or no warning," Tenet said. However, Tenet only briefly discussed the al-Qaida threat and devoted the bulk of his testimony on how to deal with the threat of rogue countries such as North Korea, Syria, Iran and Iraq. Six months later, Bin Laden was identified as the mastermind behind 9-11. 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strange.timetrip.net/?entry=throwrocks
net - After holding a job for a few years, you amass a collection of stuff that you found on the web or got sent to you that is downright funny. This is my gathering place for the stuff that has struck my fancy.