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| 5/17 |
| 2004/8/31 [Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:33253 Activity:high |
8/31 Michael Moore learns not to rant and plays it cool at GOP Convention.
His column is actually well written, IMO.
http://csua.org/u/8uj (Washington Post)
http://csua.org/u/8uk (official USA Today column)
\_ It's not bad. Aside from the bad statistics he uses to justify
him is own far-left views, he's right. Most republicans aren't
far right. What he's missing is that not being far right
doesn't make them far left either.
\_ Yes, you're so clever. I'm sure Michael Moore doesn't
understand false dichotomies. Go play in the street.
\_ This response was needlessly agressive, perhaps to make
up for the fact that it doesn't actually say anything.
Anyway, yes, I assume Moore knows what a false dichotomy
is. However, understanding it doesn't mmake you immune
to using them. This RINO concept in this column is
basically one big false dichotomy.
\_ I'm not the "you're so clever" guy, but Moore is just
saying there are the small-government Republicans with more
liberal views on social policy (Ah-nold), and there are the
Republicans who are conservative in the social policy
sense. Moore is saying this latter group is not a
reflection of America.
\_ Fair enough. Although Moore also annoyed me with his
useless straw-man arguments.
\_ ... which were? Granted Moore didn't write anything
about how Dubya and friends have a clear, precise,
\_ i guess you're right, "shoot them all" is clear,
and consistent... not too precise though
and consistent policy on terrror, whereas Kerry and
friends do not. Is that what you're annoyed about?
\_ An example "I asked whether women should have
equal rights, including the same pay as
men." Name a promient republican who would say
no to this. I can't think of any. Do you
think Rice makes less than Powell?
\_ ugh, Michael Moore. Can we just stop talking
about this guy? How about this - we'll stop
talking about Moore and you guys stop talking
about Hannity, O'Reilly, and Coulter. --liberal
\_ w00t! Deal! Although it should really
go the other way. I'll stop talking
about Moore, and you stop talkint about
how stupid O'Reilly, Coulter, etc. are.
\_ Moore is talking about the religious right and
the associated traditional family structure.
Not a straw man. But yeah, I do think it's a
stretch -- he would make a stronger case just
to stay with pro-lifers.
\_ It IS a straw man. Being pro-family is
not pro-opressing women. Saying women
should take care of the babies they have
is not the same as saying women who work
shouldn't get a paycheck. That's just
dumb, and I've NEVER heard anyone even
suggest it. Even the Bible is against
that.
\_ No, I say Moore makes a weak argument,
but I still say it's not a straw man.
What's a straw man? "Name a prominent
republican who would say [they favor
policies that would create a situation
where women earn 0.75 cents to the
dollar]." Even if a prominent Republican
did favor this, they would never say so.
What's a straw man? "saying women who
work shouldn't get a paycheck". No one
says that or thinks that, period.
Moore: weak, completely unsupported
argument on women's pay.
You: straw-man king.
\_ Sheesh. Sorry for the hyperbole.
No one says or thinks women
should get paid less for equal
work either.
\_ The Bible says that women should be
obedient to their husbands and their
fathers, not that they should have
equal rights.
\_ The Bible also says, in the same
way, that children should honor
their parents. Saying that means
women should have equal rights is
a mis-interpretation of scripture.
\_ You're either with us or against us!
\_ MM'08!
\_ Funny how he says, "we New Yorkers" when he's always tried to play
up his whole everyman Flint, MI angle in the past.
\_ Meh. He grew up there, worked in the SFBA for a time, and is now
a New Yorker. He's probably qualified to talk casually about any
of those places.
\_ What? He moved?? FLIP FLOP!!! |
| 5/17 |
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| csua.org/u/8uj -> www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A48292-2004Aug31.html All RSS Feeds Michael Moore Joins the Press -- And Gets Some By Mark Leibovich and Paul Farhi Washington Post Staff Writers Tuesday, August 31, 2004; As a guest columnist for USA Today at the Republican National Convention, he only wanted to take some notes, he said, to observe. But from the moment he entered Madison Square Garden, Moore was the one being observed. Director Michael Moore signals to the crowd on the convention floor after Sen. John McCain denounced him during his opening-night speech. News Alert For more than two hours, he created a comet's tail of commotion. Holding a rolling news conference as he dragged a clot of some 70 reporters past a growing wave of security officials and hostile conventioneers, Moore came close to disrupting the entire convention. shouted Dan Willard, an alternate Maryland delegate from Rockville. Others merely scowled -- if not at Moore, then at the traffic jam he created. Moore, whose anti-Bush film "Fahrenheit 9/11" is a $100 million-plus polemical blockbuster, seemed delighted by the ruckus. It gave him another platform to sound off on a variety of themes: the war in Iraq, the economy, the national debt. "Hey, the film's doing $120 million right now," Moore said. "When McCain mentions it, I have a chance to do $150 million. At the senator's gibe, delegates near Moore started pointing and booing, and the crowd roared, "Four more years! McCain said, "That line was so good, I'll use it again," and the crowd booed Moore some more. In his faded burgundy baseball cap, the filmmaker just smiled and sort of waved. Moore first attracted attention about 8:45 pm as he walked slowly over the temporary bridge that connects the media spillover building to Madison Square Garden. Stopped by a handful of reporters, Moore began to hold court. Video camera lights quickly popped on, and the knot around Moore grew. It quickly became a crowd-control issue, and officials began trying to corral the unruly scribes. "You were told to stop," shouted one police officer as reporters tried to break through his hallway cordon. This set off grumbling in the mob, with several reporters asserting their sacred First Amendment right to chase a celebrity through the corridors of a sports arena. "This is my big rugby scrum," Moore said, explaining the scene around him to a security guard. "It's a dangerous situation here," yelled a plainclothes NYPD officer. A delegate from Missouri called Moore a "disgrace," a few seconds after asking for his autograph. "We need to get this Moore guy on 'The Sopranos' in case we need to whack someone." com," he shouted, mentioning two conservative Web sites. Officials began checking and rechecking Moore's press credential as well as those of his private security detail. He just shrugged and leaned against a white cinderblock wall outside Gate 75. "It's easier to go to a Knicks game, that's for sure," he quipped. At one point a photographer asked Moore to hold up his credential. He obliged, and the photographer snapped a picture of Moore with a pass that read "Media Messenger." Finally, after starts and stops lasting almost a half-hour, Moore sat down in the press section inside the arena, where the convention was in progress. But working reporters fumed at those who had collected around Moore. "I'm Dave Espo and I work for the Associated Press," a veteran reporter thundered to the police. "This is our work space and we need to get our work done. The episode left Owen Ullman, deputy managing editor of USA Today's editorial page, red-faced and a bit shaken. Ullman was, in effect, Moore's sponsor, and thus was left to plead on his behalf with waves of security personnel. "We invited Mr Moore to write a column for us, and he asked if he could unobtrusively observe the convention," said Ullman, recognizing with hindsight the absurdity of that proposition. "We did not anticipate that many would consider him the story and that it would create such commotion." Ullman smiled and ducked: "I'll have to talk to him about the experience." |
| csua.org/u/8uk -> www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/2004-08-30-moore-gopamerica_x.htm The GOP doesn't reflect America Michael Moore, Filmmaker NEW YORK -- Welcome, Republicans. In your own way, you want to make this country a better place. Whatever our differences, you should be commended for that. But what's all this talk about New York being enemy territory? We have a Republican mayor and governor, a death penalty and two nuclear plants within 30 miles of the city. The top right-wing talk shows emanate from here -- Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly among them. The Wall Street Journal is based here, which means your favorite street is here. Not to mention more Fortune 500 executives than anywhere else. You may think you're surrounded by a bunch of latte-drinking effete liberals, but the truth is, you're right where you belong, smack in the seat of corporate America and conservative media. Even though only a third of the country defines itself as "Republican," you control the White House, Congress, Supreme Court and most state governments. Your people are up before dawn figuring out which minority group shouldn't be allowed to marry today. Our side is full of wimps who'd rather compromise than fight. Hanging out around the convention, I've encountered a number of the Republican faithful who aren't delegates. They warm up to me when they don't find horns or a tail. Talking to them, I discover they're like many people who call themselves Republicans but aren't really Republicans. At least not in the radical-right way that George W Bush, Dick Cheney, John Ashcroft and Co. I asked one man who told me he was a "proud Republican," "Do you think we need strong laws to protect our air and water?" I asked whether women should have equal rights, including the same pay as men. "Would you discriminate against someone because he or she is gay?" The pause -- I get that a lot when I ask this question -- is usually because the average good-hearted person instantly thinks about a gay family member or friend. I've often found that if I go down the list of "liberal" issues with people who say they're Republican, they are quite liberal and not in sync with the Republicans who run the country. Most don't want America to be the world's police officer and prefer peace to war. They applaud civil rights, believe all Americans should have health insurance and think assault weapons should be banned. Though they may personally oppose abortion, they usually don't think the government has the right to tell a women what to do with her body. There's a name for these Republicans: RINOs or Republican In Name Only. They possess a liberal, open mind and don't believe in creating a worse life for anyone else. So why do they use the same label as those who back a status quo of women earning 75 cents to every dollar a man earns, 45 million people without health coverage and a president who has two more countries left on his axis-of-evil-regime-change list? He said what I hear from all RINOs: "I don't want the government taking my hard-earned money and taxing me to death. They do work hard and have been squeezed even harder to make ends meet. Never mind that it's Republican tax cuts for the rich and billions spent on the Iraq war that have created the largest deficits in history and will put all of us in hock for years to come. The Republican Party's leadership knows America is not only filled with RINOs, but most Americans are much more liberal than the delegates gathered in New York. That's why this week we're seeing gay-loving Rudy Giuliani, gun-hating Michael Bloomberg and abortion-rights advocate Arnold Schwarzenegger. As tough of a pill as it is to swallow, Republicans know that the only way to hold onto power is to pass themselves off as, well, as most Americans. It could be your last happy party for awhile if all the RINOs and liberal majority figure it out on Nov. So USA TODAY is offering readers an alternative perspective. Liberal filmmaker Michael Moore, director of Fahrenheit 9/11, is writing daily from the Republican convention in New York. |