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| 5/24 |
| 2004/8/19 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:33003 Activity:nil |
8/18 Hey, Obsessive Swiftboat Troll. This link is fer YOU!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13267-2004Aug18.html
\_ Actually if you read it and understand the allegations of
the Swift Vets the title belies the content, and further
substantiates the Vets. Thanks!
Now, about Cambodia, Paris, and the Senator assassinations...
I have a better link for you:
ABC, CBS & NBC Gave 75 Stories to Bush AWOL Charge, 9 to Claims
Kerry Embellished War Record
http://www.mediaresearch.org/realitycheck/2004/fax20040818.asp
\_ The guy who was rescued said he came under fire. He kept
diving to avoid it. His word is better than any. The last
time he came up, Kerry was there to pull him up.
\_ It doesn't substantiate the swift vets. All it says is that the
military records support the claim of Kerry being under fire,
which this swift vet guy disputes.
\_ Well, maybe because Kerry's crewmates support his story, and
guys who weren't even on his boat have an obvious grudge
against him for testifying on war crimes, and boy, they are
*extremely* negative in the ad. As for Dubya, you couldn't
find anyone to vouch that they remember him being there at
that time.
\_ Sorry you guys don't understand the allegations.
"For much of the episode, Kerry was not in a position
to know firsthand what was happening on Thurlow's boat,
as Kerry's boat had sped down the river after the mine
exploded under another boat. He later returned to provide
assistance to the stricken boat.
Two other Swift boat skippers who were direct participants
in the March 13, 1969, mine explosion on the Bay
Hap, Jack Chenoweth and Richard Pees, have said they
do not remember coming under "enemy fire."
Thurow did not write the citation, nor did he write
the request. The quotes above contradict Kerry's
version of the events. LOL Kerry and his band can't
even keep straight which boat Rassman was on. One
thing is certain Kerry's was the only boat to flee
the scene, the other's stayed to protect PFC 3.
\_ Since you didn't seem to see this the first time I'll
repeat:
The guy who was rescued said he came under fire. He
kept diving to avoid it. His word is better than any.
The last time he came up, Kerry was there to pull him up.
Also, Kerry's crewmates said his boat was under fire.
Perhaps other boats didn't hear the crack of the rifles,
but Kerry's people were probably the targets and best
to judge if there was enemy fire.
"LOL".
I also dispute that Kerry's was the "only boat to flee
the scene, the other's stayed to protect PFC 3". This
is an assertion by one of the Swift Boat Vets, and I
would argue that all left when the two mines exploded.
\_ You don't understand the line of events. So a
guy underneath the water the entire time, knocked
off the boat by a mine has better view of
events then 1) Kerry who fled the scene 2) the
other boats and their commanders who stayed to
protect PFC 3? Rassman was eating a cookie
before he was knocked off - in a firefight????
\_ He was getting shot at, that's why he kept diving.
The person getting shot at is the best person
to say whether someone is shooting at him or not.
This is painfully obvious.
See also my revised post on "fleeing the scene".
Here, I'll leave this for you to chew on:
http://csua.org/u/8nq
"When I surfaced, all the swift boats had left, and
I was alone taking fire from both banks. To avoid
the incoming fire I repeatedly swam under water as
long as I could hold my breath, attempting to make
it to the north bank of the river. I thought I
would die right there. The odds were against me
avoiding the incoming fire and, even if I made it
out of the river, I thought I thought I'd be
captured and executed. ... John, already wounded by
the explosion that threw me off his boat, came out
onto the bow, exposing himself to the fire directed
at us from the jungle, and pulled me aboard."
\_ But depending on the day of the week, Rassman
was on Kerry's boat or PFC 3? Which is it??
And Kerry's wound was a 'contusion', fancy
word for bruise. Are you now saying the
Wash Po is lying when they say Kerry fled?
Why was no body shot and why were there no
bullet holes anywhere?
\_ If you read the article, you would find that
Rassmann says he was blown off Kerry's boat.
Second, why does it matter? It's not like
he and all others in the engagement imagined
Rassmann got blown into the water, even
if he were blown off another boat.
Show me the URL where you have non-swift
boat vets saying "no bullet holes anywhere";
and it could be just Kerry's boat that has
bullet holes, since he was closest to Rassmann.
As for the Post article on the boat fleeing,
show me where the author (not a swift boat
vet) says "fled". It also does not clearly
identify the sequence of events. To me, two
mines exploded, everyone bolted, Thurlow's
boat came back, Kerry's boat came back, they
all left again, Kerry came back for Rassmann,
Rassmann was getting shot at by snipers,
Kerry rescues Rassmann.
\_ And Thurlow's own Bronze Star citation mentions enemy
fire. Does he really want to go down the road of
exploring the possible meanings of that?
\_ Well, Thurlow says Kerry wrote it, and he thought
he got the medal for coming back for the disabled
boat, even though the small arms fire was fabricated
\_ Right, as if Thurlow never saw his own citation?
And if he thinks he deserved a medal for just
"coming to the rescue of the boat that was mined"
then Kerry logically deserves it too. |
| 5/24 |
|
| www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13267-2004Aug18.html Records Counter A Critic Of Kerry Fellow Skipper's Citation Refers To Enemy Fire By Michael Dobbs Washington Post Staff Writer Thursday, August 19, 2004; John F Kerry's most vocal critics, who has accused the Democratic presidential candidate of lying about his wartime record to win medals, contradict his own version of events. In newspaper interviews and a best-selling book, Larry Thurlow, who commanded a Navy Swift boat alongside Kerry in Vietnam, has strongly disputed Kerry's claim that the Massachusetts Democrat's boat came under fire during a mission in Viet Cong-controlled territory on March 13, 1969. Thurlow said he would consider his own Bronze Star "fraudulent" if coming under enemy fire was the basis for it. News Alert But Thurlow's military records, portions of which were released yesterday to The Washington Post under the Freedom of Information Act, contain several references to "enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire" directed at "all units" of the five-boat flotilla. Thurlow won his own Bronze Star that day, and the citation praises him for providing assistance to a damaged Swift boat "despite enemy bullets flying about him." As one of five Swift boat skippers who led the raid up the Bay Hap River, Thurlow was a direct participant in the disputed events. He is also a leading member of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, a public advocacy group of Vietnam veterans dismayed by Kerry's subsequent antiwar activities, which has aired a controversial television advertisement attacking his war record. In interviews and written reminiscences, Kerry has described how his 50-foot patrol boat came under fire from the banks of the Bay Hap after a mine explosion disabled another US patrol boat. According to Kerry and members of his crew, the firing continued as an injured Kerry leaned over the bow of his ship to rescue a Special Forces officer who was blown overboard in a second explosion. Last month, Thurlow swore in an affidavit that Kerry was "not under fire" when he fished Lt. He described Kerry's Bronze Star citation, which says that all units involved came under "small arms and automatic weapons fire," as "totally fabricated." "I never heard a shot," Thurlow said in his affidavit, which was released by Swift Boats Veterans for Truth. The group claims the backing of more than 250 Vietnam veterans, including a majority of Kerry's fellow boat commanders. A document recommending Thurlow for the Bronze Star noted that all his actions "took place under constant enemy small arms fire which LTJG THURLOW completely ignored in providing immediate assistance" to the disabled boat and its crew. The citation states that all other units in the flotilla also came under fire. "It's like a Hollywood presentation here, which wasn't the case," Thurlow said last night after being read the full text of his Bronze Star citation. "My personal feeling was always that I got the award for coming to the rescue of the boat that was mined. Thurlow said he would consider his award "fraudulent" if coming under enemy fire was the basis for it. "I am here to state that we weren't under fire," he said. He speculated that Kerry could have been the source of at least some of the language used in the citation. In a telephone interview Tuesday evening after he attended a Swift Boat Veterans strategy session in an Arlington hotel, Thurlow said he lost his Bronze Star citation more than 20 years ago. He said he was unwilling to authorize release of his military records because he feared attempts by the Kerry campaign to discredit him and other anti-Kerry veterans. The Post filed an independent request for the documents with the National Personnel Records Center in St. Louis, which is the central repository for veterans' records. The documents were faxed to The Post by officials at the records center yesterday. Thurlow and other anti-Kerry veterans have repeatedly alleged that Kerry was the author of an after-action report that described how his boat came under enemy fire. Kerry campaign researchers dispute that assertion, and there is no convincing documentary evidence to settle the argument. As the senior skipper in the flotilla, Thurlow might have been expected to write the after-action report for March 13, but he said that Kerry routinely "duked the system" to present his version of events. For much of the episode, Kerry was not in a position to know firsthand what was happening on Thurlow's boat, as Kerry's boat had sped down the river after the mine exploded under another boat. He later returned to provide assistance to the stricken boat. |
| www.mediaresearch.org/realitycheck/2004/fax20040818.asp Tell a friend about this site ABC, CBS & NBC Gave 75 Stories to Bush AWOL Charge, 9 to Claims Kerry Embellished War Record TV Gives No Respect to Swift Boat Vets for Truth Back in February, the three broadcast networks were obsessed with the story of President Bushs National Guard service. But in May, when John Kerrys former Navy colleagues from Vietnam went to the National Press Club to charge that Kerrys tales of heroism as a Swift Boat commander were highly exaggerated, those same networks acted as if their job was to bury the news, not report it. Byron Pitts claimed the veterans had merely unleashed decades of bitterness. His Evening News story ignored Kerrys record, but challenged his critics: If you think this is just a concerned group of veterans, think again. Even though the Swift Vets have now published a book, Unfit for Command, and sponsored a TV ad, the networks still arent investigating their charges. MRC analysts examined ABC, CBS and NBCs morning and evening news shows. They found 75 stories this year questioning Bushs National Guard service, but only nine detailing any of the Swift Vets anti-Kerry charges, an eight-to-one disparity. February 1 when Democratic boss Terry McAuliffe appeared on ABCs This Week to declare how he wants a debate in which John Kerry, a war hero with a chest full of medals, is standing next to George Bush, a man who was AWOL in the Alabama National Guard, and reporters began badgering the White House to prove McAuliffes charges false. But the hint of a GOP connection to the Swift Vets has reporters holding their noses. Andrea Mitchell complained the groups anti-Kerry ad is paid for by Bush contributors using a loophole in the McCain- Feingold law. Mitchells story did not examine the vets charges against Kerry, just complained about the fact that they could get them on TV. Reporters put the onus on Bush to prove the critics wrong. On the issue of Kerrys first wound in 1968, then-Coastal Division 14 Commander Grant Hibbard says Kerry came to his office asking for a Purple Heart for what amounted to a scratch. As recounted in Unfit for Command (page 38), I told Kerry to forget it. There was no hostile fire, the injury was self-inflicted for all I knew, besides it was nothing more than a scratch. Kerry wasnt getting a Purple Heart recommendation from me. a one-day story, even though the records Kerry released failed to include the paperwork supporting the Purple Heart award. On February 10, White House reporters badgered Press Secretary Scott McClellan for 30 minutes, demanding detailed proof that everything Bush said in the past was true. |
| csua.org/u/8nq -> www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_5015.shtml Jim Rassmann -- a Republican veteran that Democratic Presidential Nominee John F Kerry rescued under fire in Vietnam to win the Bronze Star -- says a campaign launched by the GOP-backed Swift Boat Veterans for Truth ad was "launched by people without decency" who are "lying" and "should hang their heads in shame." "I am a Republican, and for more than 30 years I have largely voted for Republicans," says Rassmann, a retired lieutenant with the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department. He adds that Kerry "will be a great commander in chief." Rassmann's account of his rescue flatly contradicts Kerry accusers who have attacked the candidate in a TV ad and a new book, Unfit for Command, released today by right-wing publishing house Regnery. "This smear campaign has been launched by people without decency," Rassmann said. their stories are fabricated, made up by people who did not serve with Kerry in Vietnam." Rassmann gives this account of the events in Vietnam: "Machine-gun fire erupted from both banks of the river and a second explosion followed moments later. The second blast blew me off John's swift boat, PCF-94, throwing me into the river. Fearing that the other boats would run me over, I swam to the bottom of the river and stayed there as long as I could hold my breath. "When I surfaced, all the swift boats had left, and I was alone taking fire from both banks. To avoid the incoming fire I repeatedly swam under water as long as I could hold my breath, attempting to make it to the north bank of the river. The odds were against me avoiding the incoming fire and, even if I made it out of the river, I thought I thought I'd be captured and executed. "Kerry must have seen me in the water and directed his driver, Del Sandusky, to turn the boat around. Kerry's boat ran up to me in the water, bow on, and I was able to climb up a cargo net to the lip of the deck. But, because I was nearly upside down, I couldn't make it over the edge of the deck. "John, already wounded by the explosion that threw me off his boat, came out onto the bow, exposing himself to the fire directed at us from the jungle, and pulled me aboard." Rassmann said he recommended Kerry for the Silver Star for that action, and learned only later that the Bronze Star had been awarded instead. "To this day I still believe he deserved the Silver Star for his courage," he said. Rassmann's account is the latest blow to the credibility of the Swift Boats campaign, launched earlier this year by longtime GOP operative John O'Neill and financed by two Texas millionaires with strong ties to President George W Bush. O'Neill's co-author of Unfit for Command, conservative Jerome Corsi, has come under fire for his homophobic and anti-Catholic posts to a right-wing Internet bulletin board and several of the veterans quoted in the book and TV ad have been discredited for conflicting statements, inaccuracies and distortions. These are malicious fabrications in the heat of the election, says historian Douglas Brinkley, who has investigated Kerrys service record extensively for his highly-acclaimed book, Tour of Duty. Brinkley says the claims in Unfit for Command are nothing more than the grumbling of malcontents who have never forgiven Kerry for his actions in speaking out against the war. Brinkley points out that ONeills primary source for Unfit for Command, Retired Admiral Roy Hoffman, has changed his claims against Kerry and has told conflicting stories. They seek retribution by fabricating stories to destroy Kerry, Brinkley says. On May 6, Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reporter Steve Schultze, interviewed Hoffman and wrote Hoffmann acknowledged he had no first-hand knowledge to discredit Kerry's claims to valor and said that although Kerry was under his command, he really didn't know Kerry much personally. On August 5, however, Hoffman told Sean Hannity on his ABC radio show that "I knew him (Kerry) well, because I operated very closely with him and, uh, many of the operations, uh, most of the operations were-were conducted with multiple boats." Another prominent figure in the anti-Kerry book as well as the ad denouncing Kerry, retired Lt. Commander George Elliott, recanted his statement last week in interviews with at least two news sources and then recounted his recant. Elliott also supported Kerry in his 1996 campaign and told a Boston audience that he felt the Senator "deserved the medals he won in Vietnam." ONeill further destroyed his credibility by appearing on CNN after assuring the network he had not spoke out publicly about Kerry this year. CNN later had to retract their claim of an exclusive interview after they learned ONeill appeared on C-Span to discuss Kerry in March. Fair Use Notice This site may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of political, human rights, economic, democracy, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 USC Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. |