Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 32836
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2024/12/24 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
12/24   

2004/8/11 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:32836 Activity:high
8/11    so were ANY of the swift boat vet guys actually serving
        on the same boat, as kerry, AT THE SAME TIME?  I saw
        some of them sliming away on the 700 club yesterday,
        and one of them claimed to actually have served with
        kerry, at the same time, on the same boat, and i'm
        not sure if i believe him. - danh
        \_ One was, several others were on different boats in the
           same engagement.
           same engagements.
        \_ Steve Gardner served under Kerry, and never got along with him.
           The rest of Kerry's crewmembers support him.
           http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/swift.asp
           \_ 7 of them were members of Kerry's 6 man crew at various
              times.  I don't think this set consists of all those
              who served under Kerry.  Kerry's entire chain of
              command is with the Swiftvets and only one of 23
              other officers there supports Kerry.
           \_here's some words from a guy in the chain of command:
             March 2, 1970 evaluation from Admiral Walter F. Schlech:
             ... one of the finest young officers with whom I have
             served in a long naval career.
              \_ "Only 2 of John Kerry's 23 fellow Swift boat commanders
                 from Coastal Division 11 support his candidacy today."
                 2 support him, 15 oppose, 4 are neutral, 2 are dead.
                 As for higher-ups, there is an admiral who definitely doesn't
                 like him.
                 \_ Bush and Cheney were much more heroic in Vietnam,
                    of course.  And who gives a crap what his fellow
                    commanders think?
                    \_ Well, Bush hasn't made his national guard service a
                       central plank in his campaign, whereas Kerry is making
                       \_ and he would like a moron if he did so - danh
                       a big deal out of his having served.
                        \_ It is a big deal -- Remember Clinton the draft
                           dodger? Clinton avoided going to, and that was
                           a strike against him.
              \_ Then only 1 out of 7 members of Kerry's crew oppose his
                 candidacy?
        \_ We've seen a lot of quotes from Swift Boat Veterans For The Truth.
           For balance, let's have one supporting Kerry.  You may understand
           why those who served under him support him:
           "I can still see him now, standing in the doorway of the
           pilothouse, firing his M-16, shouting orders through the smoke and
           chaos ... Even wounded, or confronting sights no man should ever
           have to see, he never lost his cool. I had to sit on my hands
           [after a firefight], I was shaking so hard ... He went to every man
           on that boat and put his arm around them and asked them how they're
           doing. I've never had an officer do that before or since. That's
           the mettle of the man, John Kerry." -- David Alston
2024/12/24 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
12/24   

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Cache (8192 bytes)
www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/swift.asp
Swift Boat Quotes about John Kerry "During the Vietnam War I was Task Force Commander at An Thoi, and my tour of duty was 13 months, from the end of Tet to the beginning of the Vietnamization of the Navy units. "Now when I went there right after Tet, I was restricted in my movements. I couldn't go much of anyplace because the Vietcong controlled most of the area. Commerce was booming, the buses were running, trucks were going, the waterways were filled with sampans with goods going to market, but yet in Kerry's biography he says that our operations were a complete failure. He also mentions a formal conference with me, to try to get more air cover and so on. " -- Captain Adrian Lonsdale, USCG (retired) "While in Cam Rahn Bay, he trained on several 24-hour indoctrination missions, and one special skimmer operation with my most senior and trusted Lieutenant. Today we are here to tell you that just the opposite is true. Our rules of engagement were quite strict, and the officers and men of Swift often did not even return fire when they were under fire if there was a possibility that innocent people -- fishermen, in a lot of cases -- might be hurt or injured. The rules and the good intentions of the men increased the possibility that we might take friendly casualties." I went on missions with them, and these men served honorably. Up and down the chain of command there was no acquiescence to atrocities. In 1971, '72, for almost 18 months, he stood before the television audiences and claimed that the 500,000 men and women in Vietnam, and in combat, were all villains -- there were no heroes. In 2004, one hero from the Vietnam War has appeared, running for President of the United States and Commander-in-Chief. I served in 1966 and 1967 on my first tour of duty in Vietnam on Swift boats, and I did my second tour in '68 and '69, involved with John Kerry in the last 2 1/2 months of my tour. The John Kerry that I know is not the John Kerry that everybody else is portraying. I served alongside him and behind him, five feet away from him in a gun tub, and watched as he made indecisive moves with our boat, put our boats in jeopardy, put our crews in jeopardy... if a man like that can't handle that 6-man crew boat, how can you expect him to be our Commander-in-Chief?" It is a matter of his judgment, truthfulness, reliability, loyalty and trust -- all absolute tenets of command. His biography, 'Tour of Duty,' by Douglas Brinkley, is replete with gross exaggerations, distortions of fact, contradictions and slanderous lies. His contempt for the military and authority is evident by even a most casual review of this biography. He arrived in-country with a strong anti-Vietnam War bias and a self-serving determination to build a foundation for his political future. He was aggressive, but vain and prone to impulsive judgment, often with disregard for specific tactical assignments. That included our soldiers, our marines, our sailors, our coast guardsmen, our airmen, and our POWs. His leadership within the so-called Vietnam Veterans Against the War and testimony before Congress in 1971 charging us with unspeakable atrocities remain an undocumented but nevertheless meticulous stain on the men and women who honorably stayed the course. We think those cast an aspersion on all those living and dead, from our unit and other units in Vietnam. We think that he knew he was lying when he made the charges, and we think that they're unsupportable. We intend to bring the truth about that to the American people. We believe, based on our experience with him, that he is totally unfit to be the Commander-in-Chief." Trust, loyalty and judgment are the key, operative words. His turncoat performance in 1971 in his grubby shirt and his medal-tossing escapade, coupled with his slanderous lines in the recent book portraying us that served, including all POWs and MIAs, as murderous war criminals, I believe, will have a lasting effect on all military veterans and their families. Our young men and women who are serving deserve no less." If I had, it would have been my obligation to report them in writing to a higher authority, and I would certainly have done that. If Senator Kerry actually witnessed or participated in these atrocities or, as he described them, 'war crimes,' he was obligated to report them. That he did not until later when it suited his political purposes strikes me as opportunism of the worst kind. That he would malign my service and that of his fellow sailors with no regard for the truth makes him totally unqualified to serve as Commander-in-Chief." It is a fact that in the entire Vietnam War we did not lose one major battle. I do not believe the things that are described happened. In Brinkley's book, on pages 170 to 171, about something called the 'Bo De massacre' on November 24th of 1968... In Kerry's description of the engagement, first he claimed there were 17 servicemen that were wounded. Kerry returned home from the war to make some outrageous statements and allegations... of numerous criminal acts in violation of the law of war were cited by Kerry, disparaging those who had fought with honor in that conflict. Kerry have numerous speeches and testimony before Congress inappropriately leading his audiences to believe that what was only an anomaly in the conduct of America's fighting men was an epidemic. Furthermore, he suggested that they were being encouraged to violated the law of war by those within the chain of command. and others in his chain of command instructing subordinates to act responsibly in preserving the life and property of Vietnamese civilians." after all these years it is still languishing in isolated poverty and helplessness and tyranny. I deeply resent John Kerry's using his Swift boat experience, and his betrayal of those who fought there as a stepping-stone to his political ambitions." Time and again I saw American fighting men put themselves in graver danger trying to avoid... When John Kerry returned to the country, he was sworn in front of Congress. And then he told my family -- my parents, my sister, my brother, my neighbors -- he told everyone I knew and everyone I'd ever know that I and my comrades had committed unspeakable atrocities." I operated in every river, in every canal, and every off-shore patrol area in the 4th Corps area, from Cambodia all the way around to the Bo De River. I never saw, even heard of all of these so-called atrocities and things that we were supposed to have done. I strongly believe that the statements made by the Senator were not only false and inaccurate, but extremely harmful to the United States' efforts in Southeast Asia and the rest of the world. Tragically, some veterans, scorned by the antiwar movement and their allies, retreated to a life of despair and suicide. " -- Richard O'Meara "I served in Vietnam as a boat officer from June of 1968 to July of 1969. My service was three months in Coastal Division 13 out of Cat Lo, and nine months with Coastal Division 11 based in An Thoi. I'm here today to express the anger I have harbored for over 33 years, about being accused with my fellow shipmates of war atrocities. All I can say is when I leave here today, I'm going down to the Wall to tell my two crew members it's not true, and that they and the other 49 Swiftees who are on the Wall were then and are still now the best." Since we both operated at the same time, in the same general area, and on the same missions under the same commanders, it is hard to believe his claims of atrocities and poor planning of Sea Lord missions. I signed this letter because I feel that he used Swift boat sailors to proclaim his antiwar statements after the war, and now he uses the same Swift boat sailors to support his claims of being a war hero. He cannot have it both ways, and we are here to ask for full disclosure of the proof of his claims." testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in 1971 -- as unfairly and undeservedly smearing the reputations of all who served in Vietnam. That said, the piece quoted above, in which a variety of veterans offer their views of John Kerry, isn't really something that can ev...