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| 5/17 |
| 2004/8/2-3 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:32644 Activity:very high |
8/2 So, I've been wondering... We know GWB almost certainly wasn't at
the Alabama AF base in 72/73. Where was he??? Why is there no one
out there who seems to remember him being *anywhere* *at* *all*?
It's like he dropped off the face of the earth. If he was out
coking up I'd expect to hear from dozens of people who partied with
him during that time period.
\_ This month's GQ has a pretty funny article, complete with
reasonable photoshop jobs, about how W was knocking around SE
Asia as a tux-wearing hitman for the CIA. -John
\_ Not photoshop. It's a doppleganger. --scotsman
\_ Hahahahaahahahaahahaha. Right. These people are part of the
old-boy wealth network. How many hippies do you think were
at those Bush coke parties?
\_ Doesn't it bother any motd liberals that Kerry is part of the
same network?
\_ No, no, no Bush bad, anyone else good!
\_ The child of Jewish-cum-Catholic immigrants is part of the
old-boy wealth network? How does this work, exactly?
\_ They are both Skull and Bones members from Yale. You
can choose the dumb one married to a Republican or the
do-nothing also married to a Republican. Isn't America
great?
\_ yea but there's always democrat super stud james
carville who boinks republican biatch mary matalin
everyday.
\_ So every person from his coke friend to his maid and taxi
drivers are all part of the old-boy wealth network and is
covering up for him? No one saw him in a store, at a gas
station, eating out dinner, or at a night club? He hid out
and spent time *only* with old-boy wealth network people,
including servants and staff, for a year? You're an idiot.
\_ He was with buddies. He wasn't particularly famous in 72/73.
If he was with buddies, they probably would cover for him, since
hey, if you buddy becomes POTUS it can be useful.
\_ See above about the odds he spent his time _only_ with his
buddies for a _year_ and every single one of them is willing to
cover for him. Your answer would only satisfy the tinfoil hat
crowd. People do remember other people especially someone
like GWB who was always the outgoing center of attention
where ever he went. Anyway, being "with his buddies" is still
no answer. Where were *they*? And who?
\_ He was training to be the Manchurian Candidate.
\_ How exactly do we "Know" he wasn't there? Some missing records
and some people who can't remember him is hardly proof of
anything. I've seen other people who DO remember him, and his
papers show full service. There's more proof for him being
there than there is against.
\_ Yes, because that's all the evidence the WH has allowed to be
released.
\_ The white house also hasn't allowed evidence that we are
secretly ruled by space aliens to be released! AAAAAAAA!
\_ Don't be stupid. They STILL haven't released all his
military records. Can you think of a reason why other than
to hide what he was really doing?
\_ Do you mean the missing records or the records they
released 6 months ago?
\_ Here's a blog link on the subject, comes with links to real
articles. (follow the links at the top of the page.)
http://csua.org/u/8fh
http://boards.historychannel.com/threaded.jsp?forum=2174&thread=100000898&start$ |
| 5/17 |
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| csua.org/u/8fh -> boards.historychannel.com/threaded.jsp?forum=2174&thread=100000898&start=2&msgSeq=2 htm l#94222251 And here is some of what I had to say: I've received a fair amount of email on the "Bush AWOL?" story and while I'm not going to post everything, I thought I'd address the basic arguments of some of the letter writers who, despite the mounting evidence, believe Bush indeed did shirk his National Guard duties. The basic charge against Bush is that he used family connections to jump ahead in line and get into the Guard, in order to avoid serving in Vietnam, and that toward the end of his six-year enlistment he stopped showing up for required drills. There are three basic allegations the anti-Bushies make, and and even if any are true, they do not prove the others. As to the first and second charges, some emailers have said I should have mentioned that GWB's father's dad, Prescott Bush, was a "powerful" US senator from Connecticut. Some say that proves GWB got into the Guard based on family connections. Others imply it proves GWB's family was famous in 1972 in Alabama and, therefore, the colonel at the Alabama base would indeed have remembered seeing GWB there if he was ever there. As to the former, I'll just respond that if GWB used family connections to get into the Guard, he still joined a unit elements of which were involved in combat in Vietnam at the time he enlisted. But that's silly - if Uncle Sam had sent the 111th Fighter-Interceptor squadron to Vietnam, Bush would have had to go. And, guess what, I can't name both US senators from Alabama, which is less 70 miles south of my house. I follow issues not personalities, but I think one of them is Jeff Sessions, but I can't name both. And I sure can't name the state's two senators from a decade ago. Howell T Heflin was a US Senator from Alabama from 1979-1997. I didn't know that - and Alabama is just 70 miles away, not 1,000 miles away as Connecticut is from Alabama. Now, please explain to me why a National Guard colonel in Alabama in 1972 would have any idea who Prescott Bush was and that he had been a Senator from Connecticut, a decade before. It is just plain silly to argue either that GWB was allowed to shirk his Guard duties while in Alabama because of his famous family - or, contradictorily - that he was never on the base because the colonel can't remember him and would have remembered him because of his "famous family" that was famous in, well, Texas and Connecticut but sure as heck not in Alabama. If the family was famous in Alabama, the colonel would remember that GWB didn't show up - but that's not what the colonel says. And if the family wasn't powerful and connected in Alabama, GWB wouldn't have been allowed to shirk his duties. The most logical explanation as that GWB put in his hours on the base, and no one in Alabama knew he was the son of a future president as well as a future president and no one took special note of him. Just another National Guard lieutenant, of which there are many in Alabama. As to the third charge, that Bush shirked his duties, the first proof that is false is that he was honorably discharged having completed more than the minimum service required in his enlistment contract. The record plainly shows he showed up, completed his training and was considered to be a good pilot. Now, if he was using family connections in order to shirk his duties, would he have had to show up, and be diligent, and really actually learn to fly the F-102? Wouldn't he have been able to get a desk job and show up only when he felt like it? As for the last 18 months of his enlistment - he was discharged early with, remember, his service time requirement completed - Bush's attendance is difficult to prove because of missing records. As I've shown in previous posts over the last few days, missing records are commonplace in the military, but the absence of the records does not prove Bush himself was absent. The history we have records of show Bush showed up when he was supposed to. In looking for the truth, if you don't have hard evidence you look for trends. Bush's personal history of good attendance and performance in the first four years argues in favor of the proposition that he fulfilled his duties during the latter part of his enlistment. His honorable discharge is the evidentiary coup de grace. |
| boards.historychannel.com/threaded.jsp?forum=2174&thread=100000898&start$ You haven't, considering that is not what at all he said. Sorry sailor Bush was the one telling his CO to pack sand. If not verbally, in edxample as he refused to obey orders to report back for duty. The letter from Bush to his unit Commander telling him to pack sand, and that he (Bush) was leaving to preserve his carcass from physical harm? I got it mixed up with Yellow Slick's letter to the ROTC unit commander. "You can't expect people to see eye to eye with you if you look down on them." "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. God will make his own decision for each of us when that time comes. Every point you have been hammering on about Bush's supposedly being AWOL has been thoroughly torpedoed shipmate. "You can't expect people to see eye to eye with you if you look down on them." "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. the guys you mentioned (unless you were referring to lefty Jerry Ruben) the only one who MIGHT have spit on Vets was Horowitz. And, he was a left- winger at the time who later switched. Is that some of that famous liberal passion for the unfortunate? My Mother's father had the same condition as I He died in his fifties. I watched the demonstrations, the phony "teach-ins" on the sidelines. I helped pick-up my returning cousin and, later, a friend from the neighborhood at Travis AFB. Don't tell me I don't know who was spitting at the returning Nam Vets. It was your precious buddies on the left AND NOT THE COMMIE HATING CHRISTIAN RIGHT. As a matter of fact, many in ROTC at my university were Christians. When they graduated they got their commissions and they were off to the Army. Of course, there was your buddy, Clinton, who signed on with the ROTC not to serve but to avoid the draft. If there were Christians spitting on Nam Vets they would have been the Christian LEFT. The Christian Right was among the LAST to oppose the war. On the other hand, in your warped mind you probably consider Tom Hayden, Country Joe MacDonald, Jane Fonda, and Jerry Ruben to be among the Christian Right Wing. Hate Conservative Christians if you want but don't make up stuff just so you can unfairly demonize them in your alledged mind. BTW, I've been up and down the West Coast all of my life. It was the left that was in the streets for better or worse. And it was the left that screamed and spat at the return- ing Vets, not the right. Those few on the right who became disenchanted with the Vietnam War did so because the politicians would not allow the military to do what it took to win. So don't even pretend that there was ANY kind of an anti-war balance be- tween the left and right, FJ. He claims to have the Saul/Paul epiphany- seen the light. But I have heard he was very much a conservative in opinions then. The only thing he had with the left was anti war commitment. But to be honest, there were many form the left and right who were against the war. Now draft them, and the right always cried about being enslaved, the left about their rotten luck. I know he was a commie back during the McCarthy period, but I am not aware of precisely when Horowitz switched views. That's fitting, the guy who didn't beat Bush endorsing the guy who won't beat Bush." Many of Veterans who overcame our physical problems to serve nevertheless put all mistreatment by whoever as spitting on by whoever. I just don't want to cut Dickie or Pat and Jerry any slack. For years people forgot about them or didn't think they did anything. It was not just the crazies on the left, they were on the right (David Horowitz). Did you catch the interview C-Span had with D Marianss and group? We had one guy who was in the demonstrations at Wisconsin U in the summer of 1967 and a company commander of 2/28 talking of the battles in Vietnam and the demonstrations. Bus is an evangelist I don't think he does, but I will not hold his faith against him. I do realize he uses it in making policy, that is why the mess we now have. For evangelists were one of many who "spit " on us vets during Vietnam. While GWB did join adfter the war, it shows his priciples are not high minded. If we did not allow them those student deferments, it would be different. Dole had one, it was rescinded in 1943 and he was inducted. why didn't you copy this-"Bush spokesman says he fulfilled all military obligations or would not have received honorable discharge". Sorry but what presented isn't accessible as such and all it does is reiterate the case Bush is covering up. Considering the fact I'm the Vet from the period, I can identify it. For approximately two years FJ has been posting this stuff at the WWII board where it doesn't belong. I direct him to a site where Clinton's draft-dodging legacy is explained. However, all FJ can do is refer to Clinton's self-serv- ing letter to Colonel Holmes of the Arkansas ROTC. Disgusting one-sided in his indignancy over military records (or the lack thereof) is FJ Lieser. At the THC WWII board FJ even made the claim that GWB never flew jets with the Texas Air Natl Guard. The stakes of the wager involved him desisting from his 'hate Bush' diatribe on the WWII board. But, low and behold, he lacks the class to honor his bet. gif It says, in plain English, that Bush was "honorably discharged from the TexANG (Texas Air National Guard) On oCt. " It is NOT a document in which the Governor "released" Bush after he was pardoned for desertion. It is simply a form-letter putting in writing what has already been given asa verbal order: Bush's honorable discharge. gif - indeed does show a gap from May 26, 1972, until his honorable discharge more than a year later on Oct. The New York Times investigated the whole "Bush AWOL" claim and said there IS proof he served after May 1972: Two Democratic senators today called on Gov. George W Bush to release his full military record to resolve doubts raised by a newspaper about whether he reported for required drills when he was in the Air National Guard in 1972 and 1973. But a review of records by The New York Times indicated that some of those concerns may be unfounded. Documents reviewed by The Times showed that Mr Bush served in at least 9 of the 17 months in question... Kenneth K Lott, chief of the personnel branch of the 187th Tactical Recon Group, told the Texas commanders that training in September had already occurred but that more training was scheduled for Oct. Colonel Turnipseed, who retired as a general, said in an interview that regulations allowed Guard members to miss duty as long as it was made up within the same quarter. Mr Bartlett pointed to a document in Mr Bush's military records that showed credit for four days of duty ending Nov. Billy B Lamar told Mr Bush to report for active duty on May 1-3 and May 8-10. Another document showed that Mr Bush served at various times from May 29, 1973, through July 30, 1973, a period of time questioned by The Globe. res=F70817FD3D5D0C708CD DA80994D8404482 So, FJLieser, the first thing you linked too is merely your attempt to use evidence selectively, and the second says the opposite of what you say it says. And, finaly, FJLieser, you are simply using a weak argument when you say, "No records in Alabama have been found. The absense of records proves ONLY that there are no records. Since lost paperwork is rather common in the military, using it to argue that Bush did not show up is simply a very very weak argument. Please, FJLIeser, provide proof that Bush was "pardoned for desertion." The New York Times couldn't find it, but I'm sure you did... gif The fault in your argument centers on thinking this as a payoff to past Bush members. Why else did the Governor intervene on behalf of a guy who deserted. Finally, he was suppose to make meetings in Montgomery Ala. Which explains why the records in Texas didn't have it eitjer. That is the copy still in the Fed's hand released by a FOIA request. He got a good conduct maybe, but it was some time later and a help of a congressman to get a piece of paper to get Honorable (and that would read under honorable conditions- not a honoralbe like the one I got after 9 years in 1977). Obviosly, like so many today you haven't any t... |