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| 2004/7/16-18 [Reference/Military] UID:32328 Activity:very high |
7/16 I have a question for the motd gun enthusiasts. Do you find the
account of Lee Harvey Oswald's shooting skills with that rifle
from the Warren Report to be plausible?
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/jfkinfo/wcr4.htm#p39
scroll down to "Oswald's rifle capability."
\_ According to Full Metal Jacket, he learned it in the Marines.
\_ I don't think anyone debates that he learned to shoot in the
Marines. The question is whether or not that particular
shot is possible with that particular rifle, even for a
good marksman. In the Warren report, several experts testify
that it is, but some people claim that is not true. I want to
hear what the motd shooters think.
\_ Of course it's possible. Any shot is possible. It's
possible to purposely hit someone at 10,000 yards in a
crosswind, repeatedly. The odds are against it, but why
not? A gun just makes a bullet go real fast in a wide
arc, and maybe someone in the world has a form of
autism that lets him figure out exactly what all the
wind, amount of propellant, solar rays, whatever, will make
the bullet do. The "he couldn't have made those shots,
it's impossible" argument is stupid. -John
\_ As a hunter and military vet, I think it would be easy for me
to hit a slowly moving target in the neck at 100 yds. I don't
know what the effect of being elevated like that would be, but
on a level surface, I am sure I could make that shot.
\_ that's the sort of answer i was looking for. thanks.s
\_ You are welcome. The balllistics on that bullet after
hitting the target are kind of screwy though. It supposedly
hit Kennedy in the neck, came out his shoulder, hit that
Texas Governor in the head and then came back and hit
Kennedy again, right? I am not saying that is not
possible, but it seems pretty unlikely to me.
\_ My grandfather was shot in the neck by a crazy man during
a court case in the 1950s. The bullet went in through his
carotid artery (interesting side note, he was one of the
first recipients of an artificial artery) and zig-zagged,
missing his spine, and came out at some goofy spot. Once
a bullet hits stuff, it can do weird things. -John
\_ yeah, I don't know much about the magic bullet thing,
but I'm curious. Obviously if the Oliver Stone version
is based on accurate ballistics, there's a seroius problem
in the warren report, but I would want to know exactly
what the state of the art for ballistics was in 1963 to
make that judgement.
\_ I remembered the details wrong. These guys seem to
think it is possible:
http://www.fact-index.com/m/ma/magic_bullet_theory.html
\_ The Republicans killed JFK!!!
\_ http://www.john-f-kennedy.net/MossadAndTheAssassination.htm
\_ I read a Marine Sniper training manual a few years ago, and
the author (a decorated sniper) made a pretty convincing
argument that it was quite possible for one man to pull off.
And in fact, offered some pretty good explanations for things
like why people heard shots from another direction.
\_ A guy modeled the JFK assassination to scale on a 3D physics
modelling program and was able to reproduce the shot. It was
on The Discovery channel or similar. Very convincing. -ax
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/WorldNewsTonight/jfk_beyond_conspiracy-1.html
http://tinyurl.com/6lokp (abcnews.go.com)
\_ What does any of this have to do with the mafia shooting him over
Marilyn Monroe?
\_ obItWasTheCIAInRetaliationForBayOfPigs
\_ Oswald was a fag. -Michael McManus |
| 5/25 |
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| jfkassassination.net/russ/jfkinfo/wcr4.htm#p39 Chapter V Chapter IV - The Assassin THE PRECEDING chapter has established that the bullets which killed President Kennedy and wounded Governor Connally were fired from the southeast corner window of the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building and that the weapon which fired these bullets was a Mannlicher-Carcano 65-millimeter Italian rifle bearing the serial number C2766. In this chapter the Commission evaluates the evidence upon which it has based its conclusion concerning the identity of the assassin. This evidence includes the ownership and possession of the weapon used to commit the assassination, the means by which the weapon was brought into the Depository Building, the identity of the person present at the window from which the shots were fired, the killing of Dallas Patrolman J D Tippit within 45 minutes after the assassination, the resistance to arrest and the attempted shooting of another police officer by the man (Lee Harvey Oswald) subsequently accused of assassinating President Kennedy and killing Patrolman Tippit, the lies told to the police by Oswald, the evidence linking Oswald to the attempted killing of Maj Gen. Edwin A Walker (Resigned, US Army) on April 10, 1963, and Oswald's capability with a rifle. Document examiners for the Treasury Department and the FBI testified unequivocally that the bold printing on the face of the mail-order coupon was in the hand printing of Lee Harvey Oswald and that the writing on the envelope was also his. Oswald's writing on these and other documents was identified by comparing the writing and printing on the documents in question with that appearing on documents known to have been written by Oswald, such as his letters, passport application, and endorsements of checks. The canceled money order was obtained from the Post Office Department. Opposite the printed words "Pay To" were written the words "Kleins Sporting Goods," and opposite the printed word "From" were written the words "A. According to the vice president of Klein's, William Waldman, the scope was mounted on the rifle by a gunsmith employed by Klein's, and the rifle was shipped fully assembled in accordance with customary company procedures. The specific rifle shipped against the order had been received by Klein's from Crescent on February 21,1963. On that date, Klein's placed an internal control number VC836 on this rifle. According to Klein's shipping order form, one Italian carbine 65 X-4 x scope, control number VC836, serial number C2766, was shipped parcel post to "A. Information received from the Italian Armed Forces Intelligence Service has established that this particular rifle was the only rifle of its type bearing serial number C2766. Experts on handwriting identification from 'the Treasury Department and the FBI testified that the signature and other writing on the application for that box were in the handwriting of Lee Harvey Oswald, as was a change-of-address card dated May 12, 1963, by which Oswald requested that mail addressed to that box be forwarded to him in New Orleans, where he had moved on April 24. Since the rifle was shipped from Chicago on March 20, 1963, it was received in Dallas during the period when Oswald rented and used the box. Hidell" as a person entitled to receive mail at this box. In accordance with postal regulations, the portion of the application which lists names of persons, other than the applicant, entitled to receive mail was thrown away after the box was closed on May 1963. Postal Inspector Harry D Holmes of the Dallas Post Office testified, however, that when a package is received for a certain box, a notice is placed in that box regardless of whether the name on the package is listed on the application as a person entitled to receive mail through that box. The person having access to the box then takes the notice to the window and is given the package. Ordinarily, Inspector Holmes testified, identification is not requested because it is assumed that the person with the notice is entitled to the package. Oswald's use of the name "Hidell" to purchase the assassination weapon was one of several instances in which he used this name as an alias. J Hidell Age 28" with the address of post office box 2915 in Dallas, handwriting experts from the FBI and the Treasury Department testified that the writing on the mail-order form was that of Lee Harvey Oswald. Among other identification cards in Oswald's wallet at the time of his arrest were a Selective Service notice of classification, a Selective Service registration certificate, and a certificate of service in the US Marine Corps, all three cards being in his own name. Also in his wallet at that time were a Selective Service notice of classification and a Marine certificate of service in the name of Alek James Hidell. On the Hidell Selective Service card there appeared signature, "Alek J Hidell," and the photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald. Experts on questioned documents from the Treasury Department and the FBI testified that the Hidell cards were counterfeit photographic reproductions made by photographing the Oswald cards, retouching the resulting negatives, and producing prints from the retouched negatives. The Hidell signature on the notice of classification was in the handwriting of Oswald. It certified that Lee Harvey Oswald had been vaccinated for smallpox on June 8, 1963. There is no post office box 30016 in the New Orleans Post Office but Oswald had rented post office box 30061 in New Orleans on June 3, 1963, listing Marina Oswald and A J Hidell as additional persons entitled to receive mail in the box. The New Orleans postal authorities had not discarded the portion of the application listing the names of those, other than the owner of the box, entitled to receive mail through the box. Expert testimony confirmed that the writing on this application was that of Lee Harvey Oswald. Hidell's name on the post office box application was part of Oswald's use of a nonexistent Hidell to serve as president of the so-called New Orleans Chapter of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. According to her testimony, he compelled her to write the name "Hidell" on membership cards in the space designated for the signature of the "Chapter President." The name "Hidell" was stamped on some of the "Chapter's" printed literature and on the membership application blanks. Marina Oswald testified, "I knew there was no such organization. And I know Hidell is merely an altered Fidel, and I laughed at such foolishness." Hidell was a fictitious president of an organization of which Oswald was the only member. When seeking employment in New Orleans, Oswald listed a "Sgt. Hidell" as a reference on one job application and "George Hidell" as a reference on another. Moreover, the use of "Alek" as a first name for Hidell is a further link to Oswald because "Alek" was Oswald's nickname in Russia. Letters received by Marina Oswald from her husband signed "Alek" were given to the Commission. Oswald's Palmprint on Rifle Barrel Based on the above evidence, the Commission concluded that Oswald purchased the rifle found on the sixth floor of the Depository Building. Additional evidence of ownership was provided in the form of palm print identification which indicated that Oswald had possession of the rifle he had purchased. A few minutes after the rifle was discovered on the sixth floor of the Depository Building it was examined by Lt. J C Day of the identification bureau of the Dallas police. He lifted the rifle by the wooden stock after his examination convinced him that the wood was too rough to take fingerprints. J W Fritz then ejected a cartridge by operating the bolt, but only after Day viewed the knob on the bolt through a magnifying glass and found no prints. Day continued to examine the rifle with the magnifying glass, looking for possible fingerprints. He applied fingerprint powder to the side of the metal housing near the trigger, and noticed traces of two prints. At 11:45 pm on November 22, the rifle was released to the FBI and forwarded to Washington where it was examined on the morning of November 23 by Sebastian Fritz. Latona, supervisor of the L... |
| www.fact-index.com/m/ma/magic_bullet_theory.html Arlen Specter: that the bullet that wounded Kennedy in the neck was also responsible for Connally's wounds. The bullet's path was estimated to be through Kennedy's throat, then John Connally's back, through Connally's right wrist, ending up in his left thigh. Said bullet apparently fell out of Connally's thigh, and it was found on his stretcher at Parkland Hospital. Test shots through animal flesh and bones with cloth covering were performed by ballistics experts. According to these tests all of the Governor's wounds could be explained by a single bullet. Under the assumption of appropriate relative positions of President Kennedy and Governor Connally in the car, the ballistics experts considered it also plausible that the same bullet that passed through the President's neck could have subsequently inflicted the Governor's wounds. The Warren Commission concluded that it was probable that the President's neck wound and all of the Governor's wounds were caused by a single bullet. Zapruder film as possible evidence that the 'magic bullet theory' is invalid, though in fact the wounding of both men occurred in between two frames of the film, with accords with the correct timeframe had the same bullet hit both men. Contrary to the Warren Commission's opinion, critics have alleged that Governor Connally was not positioned such that the bullet passing through the President's neck could have inflicted the Governor's chest wounds. Contrary to the impression created when viewing the film two-dimensionally, the jump seat on which Connally was sitting was not located directly in front of Kennedy but in the centre right of the car, with Connally's right ahead of Kennedy's left. In addition, the seat was lower than Kennedy's and Connally was sitting on the seat at an angle at the moment of impact. With this new evidence in mind, forensic and ballistic experts analysing the trajectory of bullets were of the opinion that Connally's lower position, at an angle in front of the President's left, lined him up perfectly to be hit by a bullet, had one indeed gone through Kennedy. In addition, Kennedy's posture, in which he was leaning forward (probably on account of his back pains) meant that a bullet could enter Kennedy's back, then his throat which due to his slumped position was pushed forward and lower than the entry point, and then hit Connally. The Warren Commission claimed that the slug found on Connally's stretcher at Parkland Hospital (coded CE399 by the Commission) was the 'magic bullet'. This slug was about 15% below average mass, severly flattened, with some lead squeezed out of the bottom of the copper jacker. Conspiracy theorists invariably print a picture of the bullet from the side, where it appears "pristine"; from straight-on, it most certainly does not appear pristine. Criticism Critics claim out that a bullet that passed through several layers of clothing and flesh, smashed a four inch section of a rib, and broke a radius bone could not be in such good shape. But a military jacketed bullet is specifically designed to remain intact, and according to the Warren Commission theory the bullet did not hit any bone directly until it had passed through both Kennedy and Connolay's torsos, slowing it dramatically. Test shots showed that a fast, pristine bullet would sustain more damage (and would also inflict significantly more damage) when smashing a radius bone. A slowed down and tumbling bullet, however, that hits the wrist end-on or partly with the side could be consistent with the Governor's wrist wounds and the bullet's little damage. Skeptics make another point: the only known examination of Kennedy's back wound--the first wound attributed to the magic bullet--is from the Bethesda pathologists, who noted a steep 45-60 downward angle and no exit. The Oswald window' was only about 20 above Kennedy at the time. However skeptics point out that the Bethesda examiners were harried and harassed; One doctor initially presumed the wound on the front of the President's throat to be an entry point, only to conclude later that it was an exit point. Jack Ruby, whom witnesses placed at Parkland Hospital at an opportune time. Without the 'magic bullet theory', the Commission would have had to assume a fourth shot and may not have been able to conclude Oswald was the sole shooter, which would have left the Kennedy assassination officially unsolved at the conclusion of the Warren Commission investigation. The magic bullet gives the critics fuel to discredit aspects of the Warren. However no evidence has ever been found to substantiate the theory of there being a fourth bullet; The trajectory led directly to the location from which it was claimed Oswald had fired. Based on the exact line shown, the speed of the bullet fired by Oswald's gun, the movements of both men when hit, the timescale within which they reacted (and movements on Connally's jacket immediately prior to Connally's reaction, which indicate something had hit him a fraction of a second earlier) the programme concluded that it was 100% certain that the gunman was located where Oswald had been, that the magic bullet could only have been fired from there and that both men had with absolute certainty been hit by the same bullet. In addition it was physically impossible for Connally to have have been shot at that spot in his body except through the President. Pertinent facts included evidence that Connally was seated lower (on a jump seat), and further to the right, than Kennedy (ie Connally's right side was in front of Kennedy's left), and that Connally was twisted to his right at the time of the bullet's impact. Salvarsan was not truly the "magic bullet" for syphilis because of significant deleterious side effects. The phrase "magic bullet" has, however, become associated with Ehrlich and Salvarsan and is still used today to characterize wished-for drugs. |
| www.john-f-kennedy.net/MossadAndTheAssassination.htm Mossad And The JFK Assassination "Israel need not apologize for the assassination or destruction of those who seek to destroy it. The first order of business for any country is the protection of its people." Washington Jewish Week, October 9, 1997 In March, 1992, Illinois Representative Paul Findley said in The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, "It is interesting - but not surprising - to note that in all the words written and uttered about the Kennedy assassination, Israel's intelligence agency, the Mossad, has never been mentioned." Considering that the Mossad is quite possibly the most ruthless and efficient intelligence agency in the world, it is peculiar that they have never been scrutinized in relation to the Kennedy assassination, especially when practically every other entity in the world (short of Elvis impersonators) has been implicated. But that all changed in January, 1994 with the release of Michael Collins Piper's Final Judgment. In this book, Piper says, "Israel's Mossad was a primary (and critical) behind the scenes player in the conspiracy that ended the life of JFK. Through its own vast resources and through its international contacts in the intelligence community and in organized crime, Israel had the means, it had the opportunity, and it had the motive to play a major frontline role in the crime of the century - and it did." Israel's much touted Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion, who ruled that country from its inception in 1948 until he resigned on June 16, 1963, was so enraged at John F Kennedy for not allowing Israel to become a nuclear power that, Collins asserts, in his final days in office he commanded the Mossad to become involved in a plot to kill America's president. Ben-Gurion was so convinced that Israel's very survival was in dire jeopardy that in one of his final letters to JFK he said, "Mr President, my people have the right to exist, and this existence is in danger." In the days leading up to Ben-Gurion's resignation from office, he and JFK had been involved in an unpublicized, contentious debate over the possibility of Israel getting nuclear capabilities. Their disagreement eventually escalated into a full-fledged war of words that was virtually ignored in the press. Ethan Bronner wrote about this secret battle between JFK and Ben-Gurion years later in a New York Times article on October 31, 1998, calling it a "fiercely hidden subject." In fact, the Kennedy/Ben-Gurion conversations are still classified by the United States Government. Maybe this is the case because Ben-Gurion's rage and frustration became so intense - and his power so great within Israel - that Piper contends it was at the center of the conspiracy to kill John Kennedy. " Ben-Gurion despised Joe Kennedy because he felt that not only was he an anti-Semite, but that he had also sided with Hitler during the 1930's and 40's. We will touch upon this aspect of the story in an upcoming article entitled The CIA and Organized Crime: Two Sides of the Same Coin . Anyway, Ben-Gurion was convinced that Israel needed nuclear weapons to insure its survival, while Kennedy was dead-set against it. This inability to reach an agreement caused obvious problems. One of them revolved around Kennedy's decision that he would make America his top priority in regard to foreign policy, and not Israel! Kennedy planned to honor the 1950 Tripartite Declaration which said that the United States would retaliate against any nation in the Middle East that attacked any other country. Ben-Gurion, on the other hand, wanted the Kennedy Administration to sell them offensive weapons, particularly Hawk missiles. The two leaders thus engaged in a brutal letter exchange, but Kennedy wouldn't budge. Ben-Gurion, obsessed by this issue, slipped into total paranoia, feeling that Kennedy's obstinance was a blatant threat to the very existence of Israel as a nation. Piper writes, "Ben-Gurion had devoted a lifetime creating a Jewish State and guiding it into the world arena. And, in Ben-Gurion's eyes, John F Kennedy was an enemy of the Jewish people and his beloved state of Israel." He continues, "The 'nuclear option' was not only at the very core of Ben-Gurion's personal world view, but the very foundation of Israel's national security policy." Ben-Gurion was so preoccupied with obtaining nuclear weapons that on June 27, 1963, eleven days after resigning from office, he announced, "I do not know of any other nation whose neighbors declare that they wish to terminate it, and not only declare, but prepare for it by all means available to them. We must have no illusions that what is declared every day in Cairo, Damascus, and Iraq are just words. that science is able to provide us with the weapons that will serve the peace and deter our enemies." Avner Cohen, in Israel and the Bomb, published by Columbia University Press, reinforces this sense of urgency by writing, "Imbued with lessons of the Holocaust, Ben-Gurion was consumed by fears of security ... Anxiety about the Holocaust reached beyond Ben-Gurion to infuse Israel's military thinking." He further adds fuel to this point by pointing out, "Ben-Gurion had no qualms about Israel's need for weapons of mass destruction," and "Ben-Gurion's world view and his decisive governing style shaped his critical role in instigating Israel's nuclear progress." Kennedy, on the other hand, was adamant in his refusal to promote Israel's ascension to the nuclear stage. Avener Cohen, in Israel and the Bomb, stresses, "No American president was more concerned with the danger of nuclear proliferation than John Fitzgerald Kennedy. He was convinced that the spread of nuclear weapons would make the world more dangerous and undermine US interests." Cohen continues at the end of this passage, "The only example Kennedy used to make this point was Israel." Realizing that Kennedy would not change his mind, Ben-Gurion decided to join forces with Communist China. Both countries were greatly interested in creating nuclear programs, and so began their secret joint dealings. Working in unison through intermediary Shaul Eisenberg, who was a partner of Mossad gun-runner and accountant Tibor Rosenbaum, Israel and China proceeded to develop their own nuclear capabilities without the knowledge of the United States. If you find this scenario improbable, I strongly urge you to read Gordon Thomas' excellent book, Seeds of Fire, where he exposes how the Mossad and CSIS (Chinese secret service) have conspired on many occasions to not only steal American military secrets, but to also doctor US intelligence programs such as the Justice Department's PROMISE software. This instance, I am afraid to say, is but the first where echoes of the JFK assassination can still be felt today reverberating through our post 9-11 world. The danger of Israel developing the Bomb in unison with China became a highly volatile situation, and was closely monitored by the CIA. Intent on pursuing this path, the Israeli's constructed a nuclear facility at Dimona. When Kennedy demanded that the US inspect this plant, Ben-Gurion was so incensed that he erected another PHONY facility that held no evidence of nuclear research and development. Avner Cohen, in Israel and the Bomb, reiterates this claim by saying that Ben-Gurion had taken the nuclear issue so closely to heart that he, "concluded that he could not tell the truth about Dimona to American leaders, not even in private." Gerald M Steinberg, political science professor at Bar-Ilan University's BESA Center for Strategic Studies in Tel Aviv, weighs in by saying, "Between 1961 and 1963, the Kennedy administration placed a great deal of pressure on Ben-Gurion in the effort to pressure for acceptance of international inspection of Dimona and Israeli abdication of their nuclear weapons. This pressure apparently did not alter Israeli policy, but it was a contributing factor to Ben-Gurion's resignation in 1963." To convey how serious this situation had become in modern terms, look at what is happening in Iraq with United Nations security teams inspecting the royal palaces and bunkers for nuclear weapons and materials. This matter is so urgent that o... |
| abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/WorldNewsTonight/jfk_beyond_conspiracy-1.html something out of whack about it," said Robert Dallek, author of An Unfinished Life: John F Kennedy. At a time of tragedy in the country, conspiracy theories offer "purpose and meaning that make tragedy more than a simple twist of fate in the hands of, in this case, a lone gunman," said Robert Goldberg, author of a book about the Kennedy assassination, Enemies Within. Using his 8-millimeter movie camera, Abraham Zapruder recorded the moments when President Kennedy was murdered. The Zapruder film is the only film that recorded the shooting from start to finish. The film itself has been cited as evidence of a conspiracy, and some have claimed it shows that Oswald was not the only gunman. To advance the analysis of the crime Dale Myers, a computer animator who has been studying the assassination for more than 25 years, generated an exact computer simulation of the Zapruder film. Myers created a three-dimensional computer model of the plaza, reconstructed exactly the way it was on Nov. The result allowed him to piece together various animated viewpoints of the shooting. |
| tinyurl.com/6lokp -> abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/WorldNewsTonight/jfk_beyond_conspiracy-1.html something out of whack about it," said Robert Dallek, author of An Unfinished Life: John F Kennedy. At a time of tragedy in the country, conspiracy theories offer "purpose and meaning that make tragedy more than a simple twist of fate in the hands of, in this case, a lone gunman," said Robert Goldberg, author of a book about the Kennedy assassination, Enemies Within. Using his 8-millimeter movie camera, Abraham Zapruder recorded the moments when President Kennedy was murdered. The Zapruder film is the only film that recorded the shooting from start to finish. The film itself has been cited as evidence of a conspiracy, and some have claimed it shows that Oswald was not the only gunman. To advance the analysis of the crime Dale Myers, a computer animator who has been studying the assassination for more than 25 years, generated an exact computer simulation of the Zapruder film. Myers created a three-dimensional computer model of the plaza, reconstructed exactly the way it was on Nov. The result allowed him to piece together various animated viewpoints of the shooting. |
| abcnews.go.com Thin Within How removing your "internal" fat could help keep you healthier. WNT: Photos of sex among US soldiers and prisoner abuse are shown to Congress. Defense secretary responds to critics who are calling for his resignation. More travelers and fewer screeners amount to longer lines at US airports. Lately there has been an explosion of glamorous royals marrying commoners. For RealOne Subscribers: Click here to get FREE video e-mails to your RealOne Player. Updated: 5:53am ET on May 14, 2004 Copyright 2004 ABCNEWS Internet Ventures. |