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| 5/24 |
| 2004/7/16 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:32320 Activity:insanely high |
7/16 http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200407/s1156008.htm God, what are we doing. \_ Meet the new Saddam, same as the old Saddam. \_ Oh please, call us back when he's lowering political enemies into acid. \_ Now who's the moral relativist? \_ Woohoo! More back seat driving by people who nothing about the situation, people, or cutures involved! w00t! \_ So was the invasion back seat driving? \_ Well, Bush is a backseat driver, but it's hard to call an invasion "Back Seat Driving." It's even worse when it's a bunch of jerkoff's on the motd who have no clue outside of what they read on the internet though. \_ I guess I should have said the "current justification for the invasion," which seems to be "bringing democracy and freedom to Iraq." Seems to fall into your backseat driving definition fairly well. In general I agree with you about motd jerkoffs. \_ Worse? Bush appears to know nothing other than what his advisors tell him. \_ Oh? You're better informed than the CIA, FBI, and military on the ground in Iraq? Do tell! \_ pp is not President, and probably never has and never will have anything to do with actual policy making. maybe he's a bad guy because he's sloppy in his coding or doesn't back up his data often enough...who knows? but i expect a lot more from a president than from some random sysadmin on the motd, and so far I haven't seen it from this POTUS. \_ Fine, I appreciate your right to not like the president, but it has nothing to do with what you're responding to. I was making fun of the poster because what they said was DUMB. Regaurless of what they or I may think about the president. \_ My. Pet. Goat. \_ What. The. Heck? \_ You know, the "My Pet Goat" conspiracy about the President knowing beforehand of the attack on the WTC? He plotted it with the Bin Ladins in order to boost his ratings and allow him to invade Iraq thus consolidating the Saudi and Carlyle Group's power grip over OPEC and oil reserves? Russia bought into it after finding proof of it but kept it quiet so Putin could crack down on the Russian oil "oligarchs?" It's based on why there is no such book called "My Pet Goat" anywhere. You see, the WTC crash happened earlier than was expected. When Bush is sitting in the classroom, he's waiting for the signal to act "presidential." The aide that walked in was actually whispering for Bush to "act naturally." So as an ad-lib he grabs a book and starts glancing through it. But it was just a prop put there by Presidential site stagers. So it's a fake, with a fake name. The title is an insider's joke reference to minding the "Goat," an allusion to Satan. See, GW Bush, is really the true Antichrist in his mortal form. <Ominous music here> in his mortal form. \_ You are truly deranged. You need to untie your panties. \_ Umm... YMWTS http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg detail/-/0026863553/qid=1090014531/ sr=8-1/ref=pd_ka_1/104-3540963-4296754? v=glance&s=books&n=507846 But far be it from me to throw cold water on your little rant. \_ Oops. Nevermind... \_ Well, you know, that is what a democracy is. A bunch of no nothing voters getting together and trying to decide what our foreign policy should be. I trust the average dude who gets his info from reading the internet way more than I trust your average American voter. And I trust both of them more than you, who seems to have an autocratic streak a mile wide. Let me guess, you are still bitter that a couple of jerkoffs on the motd, using nothing more than Google and their critical thinking, were proven right about their suspicions on Bush's WMD claims about Iraq. It just goes to show you, critical thinking and intelligence are a lot rarer at places like the CIA and the White House than you believe. \_ don't worry, the CIA will get it right by learning from the fucking geniuses at mossad who got busted for trying to infiltrate new zealand (see below.) military intelligence=oxymoron \_ nicely put, but you didn't indent right. \_ Reintroducing the concept of a swift trial? \_ Did anyone actually bother to check if this was true before mouthing off? -- ilyas \_ Here's more information: http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2004/s1155990.htm I give it a 50/50 shot (pun!) that it's true from all available information currently. It's true: He got tired of innocent Iraqis getting blown up. It's fake: Rumor-mongering by ex-Baathists to discredit him. \_ Its hard to say. I'm sure most of you will dismiss this out of hand, but the jury is still out. Remember rumors and unconfirmed reports of Abu Ghraib were circulating for almost a year in Iraq before the story ever really "broke." \_ You know, even if it were true, Republicans would say they got what they deserved, Iraqis are finally learning how to take care of their own country, etc. In fact, I bet that's what's being posted in the freeper boards right now. \_ Looks like there'll be no way to find out: MAXINE McKEW: Your sources of course will be sought out by other news agencies after tonight. Will they stand up to scrutiny? PAUL McGEOUGH: Well I don't know whether others will find them or not. I won't be making them available to anyone. \_ Gee, I am convinced. -- ilyas \_ Um, you don't think he might want to protect the lives of his sources? Come on ilya, you're smarter than that \_ Sure, it's reasonable. Just not very convincing. -- ilyas \_ FWIW, here's a transcript that the quote above was pulled from: http://csua.org/u/87j (abc.net.au) There are some other links regarding Allawi's former ties to the CIA and as an operative for Saddam and the Baath party in the late '70s. |
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| www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200407/s1156008.htm Email this story Email Last Update: Saturday, July 17, 2004. Iraqi PM Iyad Allawi has been accused of executing prisoners. Two unnamed people alleged to have seen the shootings have told Australian journalist Paul McGeough that Dr Allawi shot the insurgents in a courtyard adjacent to a maximum security cell in Baghdad. A written statement to McGeough says Dr Allawi has not visited the prison and does not carry a gun. He says he cannot name the witnesses but says neither knows the other has spoken to him about the allegations. "The Prime Minister is said to have responded that they deserved worse than death, that each was responsible for killing more than 50 Iraqis each and at that point he is said to have pulled a gun and proceeded to aim at and shoot all seven," McGeough told ABC TV's Lateline. according to the other witness was wounded in the neck and presumed to be dead." McGeough works for Fairfax newspapers and his claims have been published in the Sydney Morning Herald and the Age this morning. He says Dr Allawi is alleged to have told those around him that he wanted to send a clear message to the police on how to deal with insurgents. McGeough says one of the witnesses described those shot as "Wahabis, the Iraqi colloquialism for foreign fighters who have come into the country or local Iraqis who have taken on their Islamic jihad". "The reference is very much to their appearance - very short hair, very scraggly beard and four of them were described as Wahabis, the other three were described to me as normal Iraqis," he added. A spokesman for Australian Foreign Minister Alexander Downer says Australian authorities have no knowledge of the allegations. He says if Fairfax has any substantial information, it should take it to the Iraqi authorities for investigation. Lateline: Iraqi PM accused of executions Paul McGeough tells ABC TV's Lateline about witnesses claims to have seen the Iraqi Prime Minister, Iyad Allawi, kill six prisoners. Send to a friend Email Related Video Related Video Journalist Paul McGeough discusses allegations aired in tomorrow's Sydney Morning Herald that Iraqi Prime Minister executed as many as six suspected insurgents at a Baghad police station at the end of June. Win Dialup Since the symbolic handover of power three weeks ago, Iraq's Prime Minister has been trying to convince Iraqis that he is not an American puppet and that he can bring peace to his homeland. Lateline: Iraqi PM accused of executions Paul McGeough tells ABC TV's Lateline about witnesses claims to have seen the Iraqi Prime Minister, Iyad Allawi, kill six prisoners. |
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| www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2004/s1155990.htm htm Broadcast: 16/07/2004 Iraqi PM executed six insurgents: witnesses Reporter: Maxine McKew MAXINE MCKEW: Let's go straight to the allegations that Iyad Allawi executed as many as six suspected insurgents at a Baghdad police station at the end of June. The explosive claims in tomorrow's Sydney Morning Herald and Age newspapers allege that the prisoners were handcuffed and blindfolded, lined up against a courtyard wall and shot by the Iraqi Prime Minister. Dr Allawi is alleged to have told those around him that he wanted to send a clear message to the police on how to deal with insurgents. Two people allege they witnessed the killings and there are also claims the Iraqi Interior Minister was present as well as four American security men in civilian dress. Well, the journalist reporting the story is Paul McGeough, awarded a Walkley Award for his coverage of the Iraq war last year. He's also a former editor of the Herald and is now the paper's chief correspondent. He's joined me on the line from a location in the Middle East. Paul, as you've also made clear in your article, Prime Minister Allawi has flatly denied this story. Why then is the Herald so confident about publishing it? PAUL McGEOUGH, 'SYDNEY MORNING HERALD' AND 'AGE' FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT: Well it's a very contentious issue. What you have is two very solid eyewitness accounts of what happened at a police security complex in a south-west Baghdad suburb. They were contacted through personal channels rather than through the many political, religious or military organisations working in Baghdad that might be trying to spin a tale. And they've laid it out very carefully and very clearly as to what they saw. MAXINE McKEW: You haven't identified these witnesses but why have they felt free to talk about such an extraordinary story? PAUL McGEOUGH: Well, they were approached through personal connections and as a result of that, they accepted assurances. They were guaranteed anonymity, they were told that no identifying material would be published on them and they told what they saw. MAXINE McKEW: And just take us through the events as they were accounted to you? PAUL McGEOUGH: Well, I'll take you through what the two bits of pieces of what the two witnesses said to give you the full chronology as I understand it. There was a surprise visit at about 10:30 in the morning to the police centre. The PM is said to have talked to a large group of policemen, then to have toured the complex. They came to a courtyard where six, sorry seven prisoners were lined up against a wall. They were handcuffed, they were blindfolded, they were described to me as an Iraqi colloquialism for the fundamentalist foreign fighters who have come to Baghdad. They have that classic look that you see with many of the Osama bin Laden associates of the scraggly beard and the very short hair and they were a sort of ... took place in front of them as they were up against this wall was an exchange between the Interior Minister and Dr Allawi, the Interior Minister saying that he felt like killing them on the spot. It's worth noting at this point in the story that on June 19, there was an attack on the Interior Minister's home in the Sunni triangle in which four of his bodyguards (inaudible) -- Dr Allawi is alleged to have said (inaudible) -- . You were just beginning to describe in fact how this incident, this alleged incident, took place. PAUL McGEOUGH: Um, after a tour of the complex, the sort of official party, if you like, arrived in a courtyard where the prisoners were lined up against a wall. An exchange is said to have taken place between Dr Allawi and the Interior Minister. The Interior Minister lives to the north of Baghdad, and on June 19, four of his bodyguards were killed in an attack on his home. He expressed the wish that he would like to kill all these men on the spot. The PM is said to have responded that they deserved worse than death, that each was responsible for killing more than 50 Iraqis each, and at that point, he is said to have pulled a gun and proceeded to aim at and shoot all seven. Six of them died, the seventh, according to one witness, was wounded in the chest, according to the other witness, was wounded in the neck and presumed to be dead. MAXINE McKEW: And the victims, they were, what, foreign or local insurgents? PAUL McGEOUGH: They were - one of the witnesses described them as Wahabis, the Iraqi colloquialism for foreign fighters who have come into the country or local Iraqis who have taken on their Islamic jihad, if you like. The reference is very much to their appearance - very short hair, very scraggly beard and four of them were described as Wahabis, the other three were described to me as normal Iraqis. MAXINE McKEW: Now you're time line, Paul, on this is this happened just before the formal handover, is that right, to Dr Allawi's interim Government? PAUL McGEOUGH: As explained by the witnesses, neither of them could put a precise date on the incident. But they each gave me a description in terms of the days that had lapsed from it and by tracking back on the two different descriptions that they gave me from the date of the interview I had with them, which was some days apart, I was able to establish that it happened on or around the weekend of June 19/20. That would make it three weeks after Dr Allawi had been named as Prime Minister - one week before the handover. MAXINE MCKEW: And your informants, in what kind of tone did they recount this extraordinary tale? PAUL McGEOUGH: Very matter-of-factly, which is often the way you get incredible or remarkable events explained to you in this part of the world. There's been so much violence, so much pain and a particular attitude to death, if you like, that both of them recounted it quite matter-of-factly. MAXINE McKEW: And of course, I have to ask you again - I'm sure that the Baghdad rumour mill would be thick with stories about Dr Allawi. Why are you so confident that you can't put this story into that same category? You're right about the Baghdad rumour mill, it's ferocious. And versions of this story are on it and it was as a result of hearing this story as a rumour that I proceeded to check it to investigate it, to see if it had a factual base. I used, as I said earlier, personal channels to make contact with the two witnesses to establish that they were in a position to know in terms of somebody trying to come at me with a story, that wasn't the case. There was an element of chance involved in meeting one of them, which would have made it impossible for him to have been a set-up for me, and listening to their stories, their stories sounded credible. I had a colleague sitting in by accident on one of the interviews. He was impressed by the credibility and something that's very important with a story like this in this part of the world, particularly where you're interviewing through interpreters I had a very sound, to me on the ground, a very valuable set of Iraqi eyes and ears listening and also believing the account. MAXINE McKEW: Your sources of course will be sought out by other news agencies after tonight. PAUL McGEOUGH: Well I don't know whether others will find them or not. I've given undertakes that I would protect their identities absolutely and I have to stand by that. Paul McGeough, thanks very much indeed, fascinating story. |
| csua.org/u/87j -> www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2004/s1155990.htm htm Broadcast: 16/07/2004 Iraqi PM executed six insurgents: witnesses Reporter: Maxine McKew MAXINE MCKEW: Let's go straight to the allegations that Iyad Allawi executed as many as six suspected insurgents at a Baghdad police station at the end of June. The explosive claims in tomorrow's Sydney Morning Herald and Age newspapers allege that the prisoners were handcuffed and blindfolded, lined up against a courtyard wall and shot by the Iraqi Prime Minister. Dr Allawi is alleged to have told those around him that he wanted to send a clear message to the police on how to deal with insurgents. Two people allege they witnessed the killings and there are also claims the Iraqi Interior Minister was present as well as four American security men in civilian dress. Well, the journalist reporting the story is Paul McGeough, awarded a Walkley Award for his coverage of the Iraq war last year. He's also a former editor of the Herald and is now the paper's chief correspondent. He's joined me on the line from a location in the Middle East. Paul, as you've also made clear in your article, Prime Minister Allawi has flatly denied this story. Why then is the Herald so confident about publishing it? PAUL McGEOUGH, 'SYDNEY MORNING HERALD' AND 'AGE' FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT: Well it's a very contentious issue. What you have is two very solid eyewitness accounts of what happened at a police security complex in a south-west Baghdad suburb. They were contacted through personal channels rather than through the many political, religious or military organisations working in Baghdad that might be trying to spin a tale. And they've laid it out very carefully and very clearly as to what they saw. MAXINE McKEW: You haven't identified these witnesses but why have they felt free to talk about such an extraordinary story? PAUL McGEOUGH: Well, they were approached through personal connections and as a result of that, they accepted assurances. They were guaranteed anonymity, they were told that no identifying material would be published on them and they told what they saw. MAXINE McKEW: And just take us through the events as they were accounted to you? PAUL McGEOUGH: Well, I'll take you through what the two bits of pieces of what the two witnesses said to give you the full chronology as I understand it. There was a surprise visit at about 10:30 in the morning to the police centre. The PM is said to have talked to a large group of policemen, then to have toured the complex. They came to a courtyard where six, sorry seven prisoners were lined up against a wall. They were handcuffed, they were blindfolded, they were described to me as an Iraqi colloquialism for the fundamentalist foreign fighters who have come to Baghdad. They have that classic look that you see with many of the Osama bin Laden associates of the scraggly beard and the very short hair and they were a sort of ... took place in front of them as they were up against this wall was an exchange between the Interior Minister and Dr Allawi, the Interior Minister saying that he felt like killing them on the spot. It's worth noting at this point in the story that on June 19, there was an attack on the Interior Minister's home in the Sunni triangle in which four of his bodyguards (inaudible) -- Dr Allawi is alleged to have said (inaudible) -- . You were just beginning to describe in fact how this incident, this alleged incident, took place. PAUL McGEOUGH: Um, after a tour of the complex, the sort of official party, if you like, arrived in a courtyard where the prisoners were lined up against a wall. An exchange is said to have taken place between Dr Allawi and the Interior Minister. The Interior Minister lives to the north of Baghdad, and on June 19, four of his bodyguards were killed in an attack on his home. He expressed the wish that he would like to kill all these men on the spot. The PM is said to have responded that they deserved worse than death, that each was responsible for killing more than 50 Iraqis each, and at that point, he is said to have pulled a gun and proceeded to aim at and shoot all seven. Six of them died, the seventh, according to one witness, was wounded in the chest, according to the other witness, was wounded in the neck and presumed to be dead. MAXINE McKEW: And the victims, they were, what, foreign or local insurgents? PAUL McGEOUGH: They were - one of the witnesses described them as Wahabis, the Iraqi colloquialism for foreign fighters who have come into the country or local Iraqis who have taken on their Islamic jihad, if you like. The reference is very much to their appearance - very short hair, very scraggly beard and four of them were described as Wahabis, the other three were described to me as normal Iraqis. MAXINE McKEW: Now you're time line, Paul, on this is this happened just before the formal handover, is that right, to Dr Allawi's interim Government? PAUL McGEOUGH: As explained by the witnesses, neither of them could put a precise date on the incident. But they each gave me a description in terms of the days that had lapsed from it and by tracking back on the two different descriptions that they gave me from the date of the interview I had with them, which was some days apart, I was able to establish that it happened on or around the weekend of June 19/20. That would make it three weeks after Dr Allawi had been named as Prime Minister - one week before the handover. MAXINE MCKEW: And your informants, in what kind of tone did they recount this extraordinary tale? PAUL McGEOUGH: Very matter-of-factly, which is often the way you get incredible or remarkable events explained to you in this part of the world. There's been so much violence, so much pain and a particular attitude to death, if you like, that both of them recounted it quite matter-of-factly. MAXINE McKEW: And of course, I have to ask you again - I'm sure that the Baghdad rumour mill would be thick with stories about Dr Allawi. Why are you so confident that you can't put this story into that same category? You're right about the Baghdad rumour mill, it's ferocious. And versions of this story are on it and it was as a result of hearing this story as a rumour that I proceeded to check it to investigate it, to see if it had a factual base. I used, as I said earlier, personal channels to make contact with the two witnesses to establish that they were in a position to know in terms of somebody trying to come at me with a story, that wasn't the case. There was an element of chance involved in meeting one of them, which would have made it impossible for him to have been a set-up for me, and listening to their stories, their stories sounded credible. I had a colleague sitting in by accident on one of the interviews. He was impressed by the credibility and something that's very important with a story like this in this part of the world, particularly where you're interviewing through interpreters I had a very sound, to me on the ground, a very valuable set of Iraqi eyes and ears listening and also believing the account. MAXINE McKEW: Your sources of course will be sought out by other news agencies after tonight. PAUL McGEOUGH: Well I don't know whether others will find them or not. I've given undertakes that I would protect their identities absolutely and I have to stand by that. Paul McGeough, thanks very much indeed, fascinating story. |