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| 7/8 |
| 2004/7/15-16 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:32306 Activity:insanely high |
7/15 I'm not the same poster as below. Today must be "Telling the Truth
about Michael Moore" Day.
http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/fahrenheit911/iraq911.htm
\_ Damn you, right wing zealot, damn you all to hell!! Michael
Moore is the messiah and he is going to lead us to the
promised land! How dare you prove us wrong!
\_ this type of 100% sarcastic post is... retarded.
\_ it isn't any worse than "Why do you hate America?"
\_ Gawd, Condi is stupid. I'd almost think Moore expected people
to find the full quote, and discover for themselves how much
crack Condi was smoking.
\_ How did you get "Condi is stupid" from Michael Moore
misquoting the hell out of her? This is what we call
"blaming the victim".
\_ he got "Condi is stupid" from her full quote.
\_ I don't get Rice's full quote. So we attacked Iraq because it
was a cesspool of Islamic fundamentalism? Sounds like BS to me.
\_ Bush repeatedly linked the 9/11 attacks in Iraq. It is not
deceptive to imply that, even though that one quote is
perhaps a bit deceptive on its face. The Bush Administration
really tried to convince America that Iraq had something
to do with the 9/11 attacks and they were so successful
that many people still believe that, in spite of
overwhelming evidence to the contrary and a public
disavowal from Bush recently.
\_ Uhm, the point is that Moore is being deceptive with his
use of editing, like what he did in his previous movie.
I don't know about you, but Moore is the Leni Reifenstahl
of the modern era. It's propoganda, and I think we can do
better than propoganda. The film does nothing to convince
us of its merits. I don't see how it really helps the left.
\_ You're comparing a guy who doesn't like Bush to a woman
that helped justify a regime that murdered millions of
people? Hyperbole anyone?
\_ He is comparing the means, not the ends. You are right,
though, Moore is not in a particularly reassuing
company. -- ilyas
\_ Moore is attacking those in power, Leni is
glorifying those in power and their ideology.
That, to me, is a fundamental difference.
\_ Moore is attacking those in power in a country
with freedom of speech, Leni is glorifying those
in power and their ideology in a country where
there is no freedom of speech. These, to me,
are fundamental differences.
\_ Feh. Both used propaganda to achieve a political
goal. No highground for Moore.
\_ If by propaganda, you mean Moore is promoting
a cause, sure. Bush's State of the Union
address is also propaganda then. shrug.
\_ I understand 'propaganda' to be the kind of
message which appeals to the same part of
the brain which likes the 'circuses' (from
'bread and circuses'). There is this element
to propaganda where you are only really
deceived if you want to be deceived (or you
are really really dumb). Someone who thinks
he is being a friend to the cause by using
these kinds of techniques to 'promote' it is
not a real good friend. -- ilyas
\_ I can say the same for bush's state of the
union address, and all the propaganda
about Iraq's link with 911. Lots of
people got deceived nevertheless.
shrug. If one wants to equate Moore
with Leni, one might as well equate
bush with hitler. Also, by your
reasoning, I guess the Germans of WWII
just naturally really want to kill Jews,
or they are just really really dumb.
\_ So you defend Michael Moore's blatant
misquote by saying it's ok because the
President gives a speech every year?
\_ I call Godwin. You apparently don't
comprehend 'means vs ends' at all.
Best to stop this. -- ilyas
\_ I understand it perfectly.
Both Bush and Hitler uses
propaganda. That doesn't mean
I would associate the two. To
call Moore the "Leni Reifenstahl
of the modern era" is stupid.
Besides, the quote of
Condi was fair enough. She is
deceptively trying to associate
Iraq with 911 using BS like
"ideologies of hatred".
\_ then why not use the full quote
if it means the same thing? why
chop it up to make her look even
more stupid if the full quote does
that and Moore doesn't end up
looking like a scumbag?
\_ why make her look stupid?
the quote Moore gave is
exactly what she said.
Moore is under no obligation
to elaborate on everything
everyone said. That will
make a 5 hour movie.
\_ I don't recall Bush using dubious editing
techniques on other people to make it look
like they said something they didn't in
the State of the Union address. Could you
post a link? Thx.
\_ presenting information that is biased
and deceptive for a political cause =>
propaganda. shrug. Like I said, the
context is very important. Besides,
as presented in the link above, Moore's
quote of Rice wasn't unfair. She
has herself to blame for trying to
deceptively link Iraq and 911 with such
wishy washy BS like "ideologies of
hatred". Bah!
\_ perhaps you missed the numerous reports
from both the US Senate oversight
committee and various foreign intel
agencies that have all recently agreed
that there was a link and that Iraq
really was seeking nukes? Moore is
being smashed for misquoting someone.
He should have given the full quote and
allowed the audience to decide if it
was deceptive or not. He made her say
something she didn't by eliminating the
context.
\_ he quoted her fairly. she is the
one who is trying to be deceptive.
If she doesn't know any link, she
should say so, and not give bS
like "ideologies of hatred".
\_ If I was kchang, I would file
all this guy's responses under
"LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!
LA LA LA LA!" (On the Kais
motd, of course)
kchang doesn't file manually -kchang -/
\_ Nah, Lee Atwater is the "Leni Reifenstahl of the modern era."
How soon we forget. |
| 7/8 |
|
| www.bowlingfortruth.com/fahrenheit911/iraq911.htm se But for the moment, allow me to address the film's final scene, a montage of clips "demonstrating" that "Bush lied" about Iraq's supposed connection to 9-11; that the American people--a trusting, if simple, group--were bunched into connecting "secular Saddam" to the zealots of Al-Qaeda. Let's be clear about this, for it bears repeating: the administration has repeatedly and forcefully connected Iraq and Al-Qaeda--and, as recent evidence has shown, for good reason. What the administration has not done--contrary to popular belief--is publicly link Iraq to the attacks of September 11. But, you protest, I saw Condoleezza Rice in Fahrenheit 9-11 tell a reporter that, "indeed," there was a relationship! ROLL FILM: "Oh, indeed there is a tie between Iraq and what happened on 9/11." Now for the full, unexpurgated quote: "Oh, indeed there is a tie between Iraq and what happened on 9/11. It's not that Saddam Hussein was somehow himself and his regime involved in 9/11, but, if you think about what caused 9/11, it is the rise of ideologies of hatred that lead people to drive airplanes into buildings in New York." Lee from Moorewatch challenges any Moore supporter to explain this as anything other than a propaganda lie. Mike has taken a Condi quote and given it the polar opposite meaning from what she actually said. There are literally hundreds, if not thousands, of hours of video of Condi Rice talking about Iraq. If Condi had ever actually said that there was a tie between Iraq and 9/11 then Moore would have used it. So, if the Bush administration had ever actually claimed that there was a connection between 9/11 and Iraq, why would Michael Moore feel the need to use these kind of editing tricks to try and prove his point? David Koppel: Moore declares that George Bush completely fabricated an Iraq/al Qaeda connection in order to deflect attention from his Saudi masters. Numerous sources have reported a 1993 nonaggression pact between Iraq and al Qaeda. The former deputy director of Iraqi intelligence now in US custody says that bin Laden asked the Iraqi regime for arms and training in a face-to-face meeting in 1994. Senior al Qaeda leader Abu Hajer al Iraqi met with Iraqi intelligence officials in 1995. The National Security Agency intercepted telephone conversations between al Qaeda-supported Sudanese military officials and the head of Iraq's chemical weapons program in 1996. Al Qaeda sent Abu Abdallah al Iraqi to Iraq for help with weapons of mass destruction in 1997. An indictment from the Clinton-era Justice Department cited Iraqi assistance on al Qaeda "weapons development" in 1998. A senior Clinton administration counterterrorism official told the Washington Post that the US government was "sure" Iraq had supported al Qaeda chemical weapons programs in 1999. An Iraqi working closely with the Iraqi embassy in Kuala Lumpur was photographed with September 11 hijacker Khalid al Mihdhar en route to a planning meeting for the bombing of the USS Cole and the September 11 attacks in 2000. Satellite photographs showed al Qaeda members in 2001 traveling en masse to a compound in northern Iraq financed, in part, by the Iraqi regime. Abu Musab al Zarqawi, senior al Qaeda associate, operated openly in Baghdad and received medical attention at a regime-supported hospital in 2002. Documents discovered in postwar Iraq in 2003 reveal that Saddam's regime harbored and supported Abdul Rahman Yasin, an Iraqi who mixed the chemicals for the 1993 World Trade Center attack... The Weekly Standard and much of his writing on the Saddam/Osama connection is available there for free; simply use the search engine and look for articles by Hayes. Fahrenheit shows Condoleezza Rice saying, "Oh, indeed there is a tie between Iraq and what happened on 9/11." really said: Oh, indeed there is a tie between Iraq and what happened on 9/11. It's not that Saddam Hussein was somehow himself and his regime involved in 9/11, but, if you think about what caused 9/11, it is the rise of ideologies of hatred that lead people to drive airplanes into buildings in New York. I agree with Hayes that there is significant evidence suggesting possible Iraqi involvement in 9/11, but Moore deceptively cut the Rice quote to fool the audience into thinking she was making a particular claim, even though she was pointedly not making such a claim. |