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| 7/15 |
| 2004/7/13 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:32254 Activity:high |
7/12 My perspective as a Nader voter:
\_ I stand in awe of your trolling prowess. This has got to up on the
top fifty fastest-growing threads I've seen. The bullet list o' bile
is an admirable innovation I shall emulate in my future efforts.
\_ BTW, during the 2000 election Nader stated "There is no difference
between Gore and Bush" ... I haven't seen him admit that was totally
wrong, but I did see him being interviewed stating that "anyone is
better than Bush, Bush is horrible (paraphrasing)".
\_ We already discussed before how you're severely deluded. Nader is a
bad choice for many reasons, and he won't win either. So do what you
want, it's not really worth discussing anymore and you're not
persuading anybody to support Nader. Your idealistic enthusiasm is
cute though.
Bush: Pro Iraq War
Kerry: Pro Iraq War
Nader: Anti Iraq War
\_ To put Kerry and Bush in the same camp here isn't exactly fair
\_ Yes. It is. Kerry and Edwards both voted for it based on the
same info Bush had. It is 100% fair. -N'04
\_ That doesn't mean the same thing. While I agree that
Kerry's voting for for the resolution was stupid and
troubling, he wasn't the guy pushing for the war at any
cost. Nor was he the one making up intelligence to give
to congress/the american people as proof we needed to
invade and that sactions/inspections weren't working.
That being said I suspect you are a troll, but hey...
\_ Uhm, I don't think unilaterally pulling out of Iraq is a terribly
responsible thing to do. If that's what Nader espouses, then he's
an imbecile.
\_ It isn't. He wouldn't have put us there in the first place. -N4
\_ Right, and you know factually that Kerry would have? Prove
it.
\_ Doesn't matter, now. We are there. What solutions does he
offer for cleaning up the mess?
Bush: Pro Life
Kerry: Pro Life
\_ You do know that you can be pro choice and still abortion is wrong,
you just let other people make the decision instead of taking it
away from them, right?
Nader: Pro Choice
\_ uhh, where did you get the Kerry pro life bit?
Bush: Pro Big Business
Kerry: Pro Big Business
Nader: Pro Little People
\_ I'm pro little people too! Midget POWER!
\_ I love little people. It's like Thailand without AIDS.
It goes on like this. Kerry is Pro UN, while Bush is anti UN and
Kerry would raise taxes on the rich to slightly higher levels than
Bush, but overall they're both 'Business As Usual' guys. As a Nader
voter how could I even consider voting for either of these men? They
are more similar than different. What does Kerry offer me other than
a lot of noise that he simply "isn't Bush" and "We hate Bush so vote
for the other guy! (me!)"? I hear nothing from the Kerry camp that
would make me want to vote for him. The entire message coming out
is "I'm not Bush!" which really isn't true anyway. --Nader'04!
\_ If you live in a non-battleground state, your vote doesn't matter
anyway. There's no point in debating this in California which is
going to the dems anyway. Save your effort at soap box politics
and go do something constructive, like saving the whales...
\_ My vote always matters. If enough others who have the same
opinion as you showed up we'd make a good showing to establishing
the party for the future. The Republicrat party hasn't always
been the only choice. There used to be many parties in this
country. There can be again. --Nader'04
\_ Well, since you probably share all those positions with Nader,
why not just write yourself in? You have about as much chance
as becoming president, and are probably about as qualified.
Hell, if you post your name, i'll bet you could get a couple
poeple from the motd to vote for you also. Then you can say you're
voting "your conscience" without pretending you're actually
participating in our democracy.
\_ See my reply above about staying home. Same answer. --Nader'04
\_ Let me make this a little more clear. If i had to choose
between some random dick on the motd and Nader, I would
actually vote for the random dick on the motd.
\_ Kerry is a lot better then Bush on a lot of issues, abortion, the
enviornment, international relations, civil liberties... He's not
a dream candidate, but voting for Nader will only help Bush win, and
I can't condone that. If we had a parlimentary system or instant
runoff voting, then I could see voting for Nader, but under a winner
takes all republican form of government, the pragmatic thing for a
liberal to do is vote for Kerry. Idealism is nice, but it put that
asshole in power last time around.
\_ Kerry said he believes life begins at conception. To then say
he thinks abortion is ok is to legally condone murder. He's
just trying to "position" himself politically. He has no real
conviction. He just wants to be elected and powerful, the same
as Bush and many others. He's no different. --Nader'04
\_ Nader has a history of lying to improve is position politically,
at the cost of "little people's" jobs. Wait, why would I want to
vote for him again? He screws things up enough even when he's
NOT in power. [reformatted - formatd]
\_ Yeah, like when he tried to ban RWD cars. That fucker.
\_ Lying? I'll accept that if you can come up with a real URL. -N'4
\_ Kerry is a moderate. Bush and his puppet masters are a dangerous
bunch who can mess up the country badly. I am surprised a
supposed Nader supporter cannot see the difference, and in
particular, the danger of another 4 years of Bush. I think you
are a Bush supporter in disguise.
\_ Kerry is just as beholden to his masters as Bush. There is no
difference. Kerry isn't a moderate, he's got the same hungry
power madness Bush has. 4 more years of power mad vs. 4 years of
power mad followed by a potential 4 more isn't useful. -N'04
\_ Kerry is a moderate? I suppose that's true compared to
Berkeley liberals, but to the rest of the US, he's pretty
dang far left.
\_ it doesn't matter. he will have to move to the center
if he isn't there.
\_ For the election rethoric, yeah. I'm more interested
in the 4 years that follow.
\_ congress is republican, and supreme court has
shifted to the right. whole democratic party has
moved to the center. thus no danger of kerry
moving things left.
\_ Kerry is pro-life? Is that why NARAL gives him a 100% rating?
http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=S0421103
I am trying to figure out if you are a Conservative troll or
a seriously ill informed Nader voter. Please educate yourself
on Kerry's actual voting record in the Senate, not your
fantasy of it, and get back to me. According to the National
Review he is the most liberal member of the Senate.
\_ Is National Review one of those right-wing think tanks?
\_ No it is one of the more respected right wing magazines.
Sort of like The Nation, but for conservatives.
\_ Kerry can't figure out WHAT he is. I'm catholic, but I'm a
democrat and therefore pro-choice. Cognitive dissonance!
\_ That sounds like a whole lot of Catholics to me. They like
the Catholic Church, but think church doctrine has a lot of BS
\_ He didn't say he thought it was BS, he said, "I
oppose abortion, personally. I don't like abortion. I
believe life does begin at conception... I can't take
my Catholic belief, my article of faith, and legislate
it on a Protestant or a Jew or an atheist..." That's
just stupid. To paraphrase, "I think you're all
murdering babies, but I wouldn't want to stop you from
murdering babies. That's your choice." Huh?
\_ Bullshit. This is the finest point of the separation
of church and state. He separates his faith from his
responsibility as a civil servant. As a father, he
may have prayed that his daughter would never have
to make such a choice. As a senator, he supports her
right to that choice.
\_ Thanks for tagging your post as Bullshit, since
that's what it is. The government makes all
kinds of laws based on morality. You know it's
against the law for me to murder you? That's a
morality based law. If he really believed that
life begins at conception, it makes no sense to
say that abortion is not murder. The fact that
he REALLY wants that not to be the case does not
change it.
\_ I submit that John Kerry, thankfully, has a
more nuanced view of the world than you do.
I further submit that you need to do some
growing up before treading into political
discussions.
\_ Wow, I never realized that nuanced was a
nice way of saying soft/non-logical
thinking! Thanks for improving my
venacular! Hey, if I get a "nuanced"
enough world view, does that mean I'll be
able to act without consequences too? Cool!
\_ The real world that real people
live in is not black and white.
Maybe someday you will understand that.
You have never changed your mind about
any moral issue? You have never been
conflicted about any decision you have
ever made? You have never been able to
see both sides of an issue? You must
be very immature.
\_ No, he's just a geek. Geeks don't
understand any sort of politics
beyond the Mr. Spock sort (IF x THEN
y ELSE z).
\_ You do realize that morality != religion, yes?
The entire assertion that morality based law
falls into the same category as religion driven
law is completely based on this fallacious
equivalency.
\_ Way to completely miss the point. The
point is that if you believe humans life
starts at conception, abortion is murder.
(Ignoring the possible out mentioned
later in this thread.) It doesn't matter
if that belief comes from religion or not. A
religious person's morality is defined by
their religion. Since Kerry is CLAIMING
that his morality is based in
Catholisism, he should think clearly and
vote accordingly. Since he doesn't, he's
either stupid or a liar.
\_ Catholicism is a very big tent and
includes plenty of room for varying
viewpoints. Which you would know, if
you knew anything about Catholicism.
\_ Your premise "humans life starts at
conception, abortion is murder." is flawed
precisely because of the 'out' that a
Christian can plausibly argue that the
human soul does not begin at conception.
By focusing on the start of life you are
mis-framing the debate. Few medicine-aware
abortion supporters would disagree that an
embryo is alive, but the point of contention
is whether they have souls and whether that
sort of philosophical question should be
made a matter of public policy.
\_ I'm a pro-choice atheist and I believe life begins
at conception. Abortion kills a unique human
life, but it is not murder because that life is
so undeveloped that it lacks all of the qualities
that make human life deserving of protection.
\_ That's fine if you're atheist, but if
you're Catholic the kid goes to hell for
eternity. Hence abortion is wrong.
\_ Catholic dogma is that unbaptized infants
go to limbo, and will be brought into
heaven when Jesus returns. -tom
\_ Kerry may have said he believes life begins
at conception, but did he say the soul
begins at conception?
I don't think Catholics believe all
unbaptized sould go to hell. I believe they
made a specific exception for the stillborn.
\_ I don't know. If he does think
that, he should state it clearly and
explain why abortion is wrong but
ok. Instead he's just trying to have
it both ways. I would be just fine
with that position, I would also be
fine with him rejecting the Catholic
belief that all unbaptized children
go to hell.
\_ D00D u r going to H3LL!
\_ You don't know many Catholics, do you?
\_ Yes I do, and it's true that many of them have the
same problem. Is that an excuse?
\_ This "problem" you speak of is common sense and
Christian compassion, not cognitive dissonance.
Not all Catholics hold all tenets of Catholic
dogma, and this is _not_ a problem.
\_ Yes. They're trying to do the right thing while working
within a shitty system (calcified Catholic leadership).
\_ No, in typical soft-thinking fashion, they're
trying to avoid making hard choices and to have
things both ways.
\_ A vote for Nader is a vote for Bush. Good troll, by the way. |
| 7/15 |
|
| www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=S0421103 National Abortion Reproductive Rights Action League considered to be the most important in 2003, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 100 percent of the time. National Abortion Reproductive Rights Action League considered to be the most important in 2001, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 100 percent of the time. National Abortion Reproductive Rights Action League considered to be the most important in 2000, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 100 percent of the time. National Family Planning and Reproductive Health Association considered to be the most important in 1999-2002, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 100 percent of the time. The Humane Society of the United States considered to be the most important in 2003, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 100 percent of the time. American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals considered to be the most important in 2003, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 100 percent of the time. Society for Animal Protective Legislation considered to be the most important in 2003, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 100 percent of the time. American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals considered to be the most important in 2001-2002, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 89 percent of the time. Society for Animal Protective Legislation considered to be the most important in 2001-2002, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 89 percent of the time. The Humane Society of the United States considered to be the most important in 2001-2002, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 89 percent of the time. The Humane Society of the United States considered to be the most important in 2000 , Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 100 percent of the time. Society for Animal Protective Legislation considered to be the most important in 2000, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 100 percent of the time. National Association of Manufacturers considered to be the most important in 2001-2002, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 7 percent of the time. Business-Industry Political Action Committee considered to be the most important in 2003, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 0 percent of the time. National Federation of Independent Business considered to be the most important in 2003, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 0 percent of the time. National Stone, Sand & Gravel Association considered to be the most important in 2002, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 41 percent of the time. Associated Builders & Contractors considered to be the most important in 2001-2002, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 12 percent of the time. National Federation of Independent Business considered to be the most important in 2001-2002, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 25 percent of the time. Business-Industry Political Action Committee considered to be the most important in 2001-2002, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 5 percent of the time. National Federation of Independent Business considered to be the most important in 2001, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 17 percent of the time. National Stone, Sand & Gravel Association considered to be the most important in 2001, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 50 percent of the time. Business-Industry Political Action Committee considered to be the most important in 2000, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 7 percent of the time. National Federation of Independent Business considered to be the most important in 1999-2000, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 16 percent of the time. Leadership Conference on Civil Rights considered to be the most important in 2003, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 100 percent of the time. National Hispanic Leadership Agenda considered to be the most important in 2001-2002, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 81 percent of the time. Leadership Conference on Civil Rights considered to be the most important in 2001-2002, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 100 percent of the time. National Association for the Advancement of Colored People considered to be the most important in 2001-2002, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 100 percent of the time. National Association for the Advancement of Colored People considered to be the most important in 2001, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 100 percent of the time. National Association for the Advancement of Colored People considered to be the most important in 2000, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 93 percent of the time. Leadership Conference on Civil Rights considered to be the most important in 1999-2000, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 94 percent of the time. Republican Liberty Caucus - Personal Liberties considered to be the most important in 2003, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 0 percent of the time. Conservative Index - The John Birch Society considered to be the most important in 2002, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 11 percent of the time. Conservative Index - The John Birch Society considered to be the most important in 2001, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 5 percent of the time. Conservative Index - The John Birch Society considered to be the most important in 2000, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 12 percent of the time. Citizens United for Rehabilition of Errants considered to be the most important in 1999-2000, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 63 percent of the time. National Parks Consevation Association considered to be the most important in 2001-2002, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 100 percent of the time. Comprehensive US Sustainable Population considered to be the most important in 2001-2002, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 73 percent of the time. National Parks Conservation Association considered to be the most important in 1999-2000 , Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 100 percent of the time. Comprehensive US Sustainable Population considered to be the most important in 1999-2000, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 84 percent of the time. Jews for Peace in Palestine and Israel considered to be the most important in 2003, a point system was established for both the Senate and the House. In the Senate, total possible points range from a high of +3 and a low of -4. US Campaign to End the Israeli Occupation considered to be the most important in 2003, a point system was established for both the Senate and the House. In the Senate, total possible points range from a high of +3 and a low of -4. Jews for Peace in Palestine and Israel considered to be the most important in 2001-2002, a point system was established for both the Senate and the House. In the Senate, total possible points range from a high of +1 and a low of -5. American Foreign Service Association considered to be the most important in 2001-2002, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 88 percent of the time. Washington Report on Middle East Affairs (WRMEA) considered to be the most important in 2001, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 0 percent of the time. Business and Professional Women USA considered to be the most important during the 107th Congress, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 80 percent of the time. American Association of University Women considered to be the most important in 2003, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 100 percent of the time. American Association of University Women considered to be the most important in 2001-2002, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 100 percent of the time. Business and Professional Women/USA considered to be the most important during the 107th Congress, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 100 percent of the time. American Association of University Women considered to be the most important in 2001, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 100 percent of the time. The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence considered to be the most... |