7/8 "No analyst is going to say they changed their view as a result of
specific pressure. No analyst is going to admit that. But there is no
doubt and this report reflects the fact that there was tremendous
pressure inside the agency. As a matter of fact, [CIA Director George
J.] Tenet himself said, and this report reflects that, that he was
told by analysts that they were under tremendous pressure. And what
Tenet said is, well, in that case, just try to ignore that pressure.
But the pressure was clearly there." -Carl Levin, a senior Democrat on
the Senate intelligence committee today
\_ just wait--soon we'll be hearing from the GOP that the whole
thing was the fault of the Democrats because they failed in their
responsibility as the minority party to question the actions of the
majority and mindlessly followed to avoid looking unpatriotic.
for once, i'd be in agreement.
\_ Further proof of motd axiom #4: anything a democrat does, evil.
Anything a republican does, good.
\_ careful, the poster you're responding to just might be a
Democrat
\_ if you mean that I hate the republicans, greens, socialists
and libertarians even *more* than I hate the democrats,
then yes, i guess i'm a democrat. -above poster
\_ I ve never understood the hatred of librarians.
\_ I ve never understood the hatred of libertarians
Do you just hate them in their capacity as a bookish
voting block? Or do you have a problem with their
'live and let live' mentality? -- ilyas
\_ I'm going to assume you mean "libertarian."
I hate libertarians because it has been my
observation from reading stuff on their website,
reading publications of the self-proclaimed
libertarian cato institute, and reading motd
libertarian posts that while they claim to
care about freedom, they're really just for
corporate socialism. When it comes to individual
freedoms, i agree with libertarians, but it seems
that their biggest issue is not with the freedom
of individuals but with the "freedom" of corporations
who in many cases have more power than any but
a handful of nations to do whatever they want.
This is a very simliar arguement to saying that
the "freedom" of governments must be preserved
by letting them oppress poeple, because that's what
governments do and they should have to the right to
do it. when the government decides it has the right
to imprison citizens indefinitely based on secret
evidence, the libertarians are mostly silent, but
when the goverment tries to limit a corporations
"right" to kill people and cause birth defects
with pollution, they're up in arms.
\_ Some idiot changed my post. Anyways, I don't
know where you get this thing about libertarian
silence. Libertarians don't like the elements
of Bush policy involving the patriot act and
indefinite detention etc. I certainly don't, and
said so before.
As for corporations, there are big
differences between corps and governments. Corps
can't use force, for example. Thus, while corps
are worth watching, governments are worth watching
ten times more. I think it's a matter of picking
your villains. There is no question in my mind
that corps do bad things. But governments do bad
things too, and their bad things are much worse.
Look at Mogabe's [sp?] government, for example.
-- ilyas
\_ Corporations can't use force in the way of guns
(not counting mercenaries in countries we dont
like), but they can use almost any other kind
of force. Their legal resources dwarf the
agerage citizen's. They can basically buy laws
to make the governement do what they like
(within limits). Ask someone who's had their
home taken away by eminent domain to build
a shopping mall whether the corporation or the
government used force. Ask the good citizens
of Bohpal if a corporation's power is less
dangerous than their government.
differences between corps and governments. Corps
can't use force, for example. Thus, while corps
are worth watching, governments are worth watching
ten times more. I think it's a matter of picking
your villains. There is no question in my mind
that corps do bad things. But governments do bad
things too, and their bad things are much worse.
Look at Mogabe's [sp?] government, for example.
-- ilyas
\_ I don't think you ll have a lot of luck
blaming eminent domain abuses on corps.
That's a government flavor of evil: "hey if
we have a shopping mall on this land instead
of this old grandma's home, we ll get a lot
more taxes!"
Libertarians really don't like eminent
domain abuses, too. Also, you seem to have
\_ My great uncle's house was taken by
eminent domain supposeadly to build a
road. He then found out the county was
planning to sell the land to a
politically-connected developer so the
developer would essentially be able to
buy commercial land at residential
prices. My G. Uncle sued to force them
to build a road there. This is in Clark
County, NV. There's a similar situation
in NJ where Atlantic City tried to take
someone's house to build a road to a
parking lot for a Trump casino. Is it
really government being evil, or is it
the power of corporations corrupting
government?
I guess you'd say government is
dangerous because it wields power, while
I'd say corporations are dangerous
because they wield government.
a weird way of assigning blame. If the
system is venal, who are more to blame: the
folks who buy or the folks who are bought?
I d say the latter, because if they acted
morally, the former would be SOL. -- ilyas
\_ In the current circumstance, the acts
themselves are not _illegal_ on the part
of the buyers; they're still unethical
and immoral, and they contribute to the
continuation of the corruption. It breaks
the spirit of the Social Compact to game
the system.
\_ If the buyer is giving a kickback to
someone in government, it is very
illegal (though potentially hard to
proove).
\_ So now back to my original question,
Did anything I say sound
unreasonable to you? -- ilyas
\_ I think that's ok. this is an axiom of the *motd*, not
reality. |
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