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2004/7/6-7 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:31181 Activity:insanely high |
7/6 Any ideas from you folks about how to reverse the decline in Engineering education and work in the US? It seems as though this trend isn't changing, and meanwhile interest in Engineering by Chinese students just continues to soar. How long before we fall permanently behind? \_ I think you have to start young. They guys I played with building legos when we were in preschool are all engineers now. \_ Don't worry, we still control the money. \_ Engi-what? Can't we just ask God to build us a bridge? \_ Dude! Faith-based architecture, and Evangelical Christian Feng Shui! This would make an excellent Star Trek novel. \_ China is still far behind. Name one decent Chinese high-tech company. Dell is gaining on Legend in China itself. Cisco will slaughter Huawei (how many even heard about Huawei?). \_ I was thinking more in terms of the future and the educational system, rather than simply in terms of companies. Engineers have to come from somewhere, you don't just pick them off the Engineer tree. \_ Actually, we have been picking them off the Engineer trees, trees from all over the world, while US produces relatively fewer engineers, they tend to be fairly good ones. \_ This is due to a lack of money, not lack of talent. \_ Talent is just one of many things. Lots of countries have talented engineers including Russia and many European countries, but we are still very much ahead of all of them. of all of them. Why? Because the best opportunities are in the US, so their best engineers all come here. \_ Again, like I said, money. \_ money is part of it, but also the entrepreneurial spirit, openness, diversity, corporate culture, creative environment, etc. \_ Good point. All these can be learned, to some degree (and Chinese are very good at learning) except money. It will take a while. \_ not sure if it's easy to learn. the japanese failed to learn it after all these years, and neither did the europeans. it's kind of like dell. everyone knows what makes it successful, but they just can't successfully copy its model. it could be especially difficult for china given its current political structure. maybe the EU can do it eventually. \_ Here's a NYTimes Magazine article regarding China with regard to this very topic. Insert obligatory whining about NYTimes if you wish. http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/04/magazine/04CHINA.html http://tinyurl.com/2t6o2 (nytimes.com) \_ I have no doubt China is a juggernaut in manufacturing, but can it take the next step up and create its own world-class companies. For example, the article argues that manufacturers now supplying say Motorola is now selling their own phones. Sure. But can they sell well outside China's borders? We have two business models here. First is a Chinese company doing everything, second is a US company doing the branding, marketing, design and distribution, and the Chinese partner doing the manufacturing. So far the second model is the better one, and I am not convinced it's going to change soon. Taiwanese companies like Acer have tried to break into the US market with their own brand but ended in failure. Korean companies like Samsung have had more success, and of course the Japanese too. Haven't seen much from China so far. \_ That's because, unlike Japan who changed the implication of "made in japan" from bad to good, stuff made in China hard- core sucks. \_ That's partly true. Even though many of your nokia, motorola cell phones, \_ That's partly true. Even though China makes many of your nokia, motorola cell phones, dell computers, etc., they still need the quality control set up by your world-class companies doing the manufacturing there. But even the Japanese are finding it necessary to shift production to China to stay competitive. Like I said, Chinese manufacturing coupled with western/japanese research, design, marketing, branding and distribution seems to be the most competitive model at this juncture. \_ obviously you know what are you talking about. I want to add that don't discredit Chinese brand completely yet. It takes years if not decades of effort to build up brand (which implies R&D and quality control), and Chinese company has one small advantage over all its Asian tiger: huge domestic market. People may think Huawei is just a Cisco knock-off, but if your memory last long enough you might remember that Japan was doing the exact same thing in the past. Then, there is a company called TCL, which pumps out 40 million cell phones a year yet no one really hearrd of them before With their shear size, they slowly start to gain advantages in component price, etc, and soon or later they will have enough spare cash to try to establish its own brand. \_ Wow. Eye find it totally easy two respect you're arguments. Keep thee rebukes cumming. \_ While market size of China is big, unlike Japan and South Korea at a similar stage of development, due to WTO, China's market is more open to foreign companies and competition, making it tougher to nurture domestic brands. The thing about free trade is that it tends to strengthens existing competitive advan- tages, and makes it harder to develop new competitive advantages. \_ Allow the return of competition to the public schools. \_ cf Battle Royale! \_ What on earth are you talking about? Something competing with the public schools? People in the schools competing with each other? How will either of those get Americans interested in Engineering again? \_ Being graded on merit and not worrying about social issues force students to excel. That's waned significantly in recent years. \_ Worrying about social issues? Excuse me? I think your assertion is lacking in both clarity and evidence. Of course this is the motd, so go for it! Anyway, I think the below poster is a little closer to the core issue than you. \_ Life skills, multiculturalism, don't make anyone feel bad, screen the Michael Moore movie at the NEA convention. That kind of crap. \_ The Dilbert experience, outsourcing, and long hours of solitary staring at computer screens probably isn't that appealing to many staring at computer screens probably aren't that appealing to many Americans without the get-rich-quick carrot to lead them on. Probably there are more opportunities in other fields here in America than there are in China or India, so an engineering job doesn't seem as desirable here. |
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www.nytimes.com/2004/07/04/magazine/04CHINA.html Business What type of ad will you see if your Weather Channel forecast calls for rain? Find out how TV advertisers can use regional conditions to make minute-by-minute advertising choices. The Chinese Century By TED C FISHMAN Published: July 4, 2004 C hina used to be far away, the country at the bottom of the world. According to local legend, Pekin is directly opposite Beijing on the globe. The high-school teams there were still called the Chinks until 1981, when they were renamed the Dragons. A smart and forward-looking decision, it turns out: as is happening throughout the United States, the Pekinese have in their own local ways grown inextricably linked to the Chinese of today. They are now connected not by an imaginary hole through the earth but by the world's shipping lanes, financial markets, telecommunications networks and, above all, the globalization of appetites. Trade deals struck between the US and China in April will, farmers around Pekin hope, lead China to lower its import barriers and buy half a million metric tons of American corn this year. Illinois corn farmers get higher-than-usual prices for their exports because they have ready access to river transportation and in turn to big ports. Pekin is also home to the plant of Aventine Renewable Energy, the nation's second-largest producer of ethanol, a fuel derived from corn. That makes ethanol an increasingly attractive alternative. And, indeed, ethanol prices climbed 40 cents a gallon this spring, dragging up US corn prices as a result, a boon to Pekin's farmers and industry. Then there's Excel Foundry and Machine, a local factory that makes parts for machinery used in heavy construction and mining operations. Doug Parsons, the current head of this family-owned business, has already relocated 12 percent of the company's production to China in order to hold onto business that would otherwise be lost to China's huge, cheap foundries; during the next decade he may well have to move much more of his production offshore. Parsons has China on his mind for other reasons too: over the past few months, the prices of copper and iron, like those of oil, have skyrocketed in response to Chinese demand, driving up Excel's costs as a result. At the same time, however, his international mining customers have been buying more Excel products in order to feed that same Chinese appetite for commodities. And Parsons himself recently started a new company that he says will build and service advanced rock-crushing machines -- in part to take advantage of the frenzied construction boom under way in China. Because 12 percent of China's exports to the US end up on Wal-Mart's shelves, and because Wal-Mart's trade with China accounts for 1 percent of that country's gross domestic product, the company exerts tremendous downward pressure on prices. Its buying power enables it to dictate, in effect, what a Chinese manufacturer will get for producing goods that American consumers want. By selling Chinese-made portable DVD players with seven-inch LCD screens for less than $200, for instance, Wal-Mart helped to cut the price of these trendy devices in half over the last year. Competitors have to match the chain's prices or go under. Nearly every shopper in Pekin will therefore save money by shopping at Wal-Mart -- which is to say he or she will profit from the retailer's China connection. Of course, this very connection may also contribute to Wal-Mart's ability to drive other Pekin-area stores out of business. |
tinyurl.com/2t6o2 -> www.nytimes.com/auth/login?URI=http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/04/magazine/04CHINA.html Business What type of ad will you see if your Weather Channel forecast calls for rain? Find out how TV advertisers can use regional conditions to make minute-by-minute advertising choices. The Chinese Century By TED C FISHMAN Published: July 4, 2004 C hina used to be far away, the country at the bottom of the world. According to local legend, Pekin is directly opposite Beijing on the globe. The high-school teams there were still called the Chinks until 1981, when they were renamed the Dragons. A smart and forward-looking decision, it turns out: as is happening throughout the United States, the Pekinese have in their own local ways grown inextricably linked to the Chinese of today. They are now connected not by an imaginary hole through the earth but by the world's shipping lanes, financial markets, telecommunications networks and, above all, the globalization of appetites. Trade deals struck between the US and China in April will, farmers around Pekin hope, lead China to lower its import barriers and buy half a million metric tons of American corn this year. Illinois corn farmers get higher-than-usual prices for their exports because they have ready access to river transportation and in turn to big ports. Pekin is also home to the plant of Aventine Renewable Energy, the nation's second-largest producer of ethanol, a fuel derived from corn. That makes ethanol an increasingly attractive alternative. And, indeed, ethanol prices climbed 40 cents a gallon this spring, dragging up US corn prices as a result, a boon to Pekin's farmers and industry. Then there's Excel Foundry and Machine, a local factory that makes parts for machinery used in heavy construction and mining operations. Doug Parsons, the current head of this family-owned business, has already relocated 12 percent of the company's production to China in order to hold onto business that would otherwise be lost to China's huge, cheap foundries; during the next decade he may well have to move much more of his production offshore. Parsons has China on his mind for other reasons too: over the past few months, the prices of copper and iron, like those of oil, have skyrocketed in response to Chinese demand, driving up Excel's costs as a result. At the same time, however, his international mining customers have been buying more Excel products in order to feed that same Chinese appetite for commodities. And Parsons himself recently started a new company that he says will build and service advanced rock-crushing machines -- in part to take advantage of the frenzied construction boom under way in China. Because 12 percent of China's exports to the US end up on Wal-Mart's shelves, and because Wal-Mart's trade with China accounts for 1 percent of that country's gross domestic product, the company exerts tremendous downward pressure on prices. Its buying power enables it to dictate, in effect, what a Chinese manufacturer will get for producing goods that American consumers want. By selling Chinese-made portable DVD players with seven-inch LCD screens for less than $200, for instance, Wal-Mart helped to cut the price of these trendy devices in half over the last year. Competitors have to match the chain's prices or go under. Nearly every shopper in Pekin will therefore save money by shopping at Wal-Mart -- which is to say he or she will profit from the retailer's China connection. Of course, this very connection may also contribute to Wal-Mart's ability to drive other Pekin-area stores out of business. |
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