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| 7/9 |
| 2004/7/6-7 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:31181 Activity:insanely high |
7/6 Any ideas from you folks about how to reverse the decline in
Engineering education and work in the US? It seems as though
this trend isn't changing, and meanwhile interest in Engineering
by Chinese students just continues to soar. How long before we
fall permanently behind?
\_ I think you have to start young. They guys I played with building
legos when we were in preschool are all engineers now.
\_ Don't worry, we still control the money.
\_ Engi-what? Can't we just ask God to build us a bridge?
\_ Dude! Faith-based architecture, and Evangelical Christian Feng
Shui! This would make an excellent Star Trek novel.
\_ China is still far behind. Name one decent Chinese high-tech
company. Dell is gaining on Legend in China itself. Cisco
will slaughter Huawei (how many even heard about Huawei?).
\_ I was thinking more in terms of the future and the educational
system, rather than simply in terms of companies. Engineers
have to come from somewhere, you don't just pick them off the
Engineer tree.
\_ Actually, we have been picking them off the Engineer
trees, trees from all over the world, while US
produces relatively fewer engineers, they tend to
be fairly good ones.
\_ This is due to a lack of money, not lack of talent.
\_ Talent is just one of many things. Lots of countries
have talented engineers including Russia and many
European countries, but we are still very much ahead
of all of them.
of all of them. Why? Because the best opportunities
are in the US, so their best engineers all come here.
\_ Again, like I said, money.
\_ money is part of it, but also the entrepreneurial
spirit, openness, diversity, corporate culture,
creative environment, etc.
\_ Good point. All these can be learned, to some
degree (and Chinese are very good at learning)
except money. It will take a while.
\_ not sure if it's easy to learn. the japanese
failed to learn it after all these years, and
neither did the europeans. it's kind of like
dell. everyone knows what makes it
successful, but they just can't successfully
copy its model. it could be especially
difficult for china given its current
political structure. maybe the EU can do
it eventually.
\_ Here's a NYTimes Magazine article regarding
China with regard to this very topic. Insert
obligatory whining about NYTimes if you wish.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/04/magazine/04CHINA.html
http://tinyurl.com/2t6o2 (nytimes.com)
\_ I have no doubt China is a juggernaut in
manufacturing, but can it take the next
step up and create its own world-class
companies. For example, the article
argues that manufacturers now supplying
say Motorola is now selling their own
phones. Sure. But can they sell well
outside China's borders? We have two
business models here. First is a Chinese
company doing everything, second is a
US company doing the branding, marketing,
design and distribution, and the Chinese
partner doing the manufacturing. So
far the second model is the better one,
and I am not convinced it's going to
change soon. Taiwanese companies like Acer
have tried to break into the US market
with their own brand but ended in failure.
Korean companies like Samsung have had
more success, and of course the Japanese
too. Haven't seen much from China so far.
\_ That's because, unlike Japan who changed
the implication of "made in japan" from
bad to good, stuff made in China hard-
core sucks.
\_ That's partly true. Even though many
of your nokia, motorola cell phones,
\_ That's partly true. Even though
China makes many of your nokia,
motorola cell phones,
dell computers, etc., they
still need the quality control set
up by your world-class companies
doing the manufacturing there.
But even the Japanese are finding
it necessary to shift production
to China to stay competitive.
Like I said, Chinese manufacturing
coupled with western/japanese
research, design, marketing,
branding and distribution seems to
be the most competitive model at this
juncture.
\_ obviously you know what are you
talking about. I want to add that
don't discredit Chinese brand
completely yet. It takes years
if not decades of effort to build
up brand (which implies R&D and
quality control), and Chinese
company has one small advantage
over all its Asian tiger: huge
domestic market. People may think
Huawei is just a Cisco knock-off,
but if your memory last long enough
you might remember that Japan was
doing the exact same thing in the
past. Then, there is a company
called TCL, which pumps out
40 million cell phones a year yet
no one really hearrd of them before
With their shear size, they slowly
start to gain advantages in
component price, etc, and soon or
later they will have enough spare
cash to try to establish its own
brand.
\_ Wow. Eye find it totally
easy two respect you're
arguments. Keep thee rebukes
cumming.
\_ While market size of China is
big, unlike Japan and South
Korea at a similar stage of
development, due to WTO,
China's market is more
open to foreign companies and
competition, making it tougher
to nurture domestic brands.
The thing about free trade is
that it tends to strengthens
existing competitive advan-
tages, and makes it harder
to develop new competitive
advantages.
\_ Allow the return of competition to the public schools.
\_ cf Battle Royale!
\_ What on earth are you talking about? Something competing
with the public schools? People in the schools competing
with each other? How will either of those get Americans
interested in Engineering again?
\_ Being graded on merit and not worrying about social issues
force students to excel. That's waned significantly in
recent years.
\_ Worrying about social issues? Excuse me? I think your
assertion is lacking in both clarity and evidence.
Of course this is the motd, so go for it! Anyway, I think
the below poster is a little closer to the core issue
than you.
\_ Life skills, multiculturalism, don't make anyone feel
bad, screen the Michael Moore movie at the NEA
convention. That kind of crap.
\_ The Dilbert experience, outsourcing, and long hours of solitary
staring at computer screens probably isn't that appealing to many
staring at computer screens probably aren't that appealing to many
Americans without the get-rich-quick carrot to lead them on.
Probably there are more opportunities in other fields here in
America than there are in China or India, so an engineering job
doesn't seem as desirable here. |
| 7/9 |
|
| www.nytimes.com/2004/07/04/magazine/04CHINA.html Business What type of ad will you see if your Weather Channel forecast calls for rain? Find out how TV advertisers can use regional conditions to make minute-by-minute advertising choices. The Chinese Century By TED C FISHMAN Published: July 4, 2004 C hina used to be far away, the country at the bottom of the world. According to local legend, Pekin is directly opposite Beijing on the globe. The high-school teams there were still called the Chinks until 1981, when they were renamed the Dragons. A smart and forward-looking decision, it turns out: as is happening throughout the United States, the Pekinese have in their own local ways grown inextricably linked to the Chinese of today. They are now connected not by an imaginary hole through the earth but by the world's shipping lanes, financial markets, telecommunications networks and, above all, the globalization of appetites. Trade deals struck between the US and China in April will, farmers around Pekin hope, lead China to lower its import barriers and buy half a million metric tons of American corn this year. Illinois corn farmers get higher-than-usual prices for their exports because they have ready access to river transportation and in turn to big ports. Pekin is also home to the plant of Aventine Renewable Energy, the nation's second-largest producer of ethanol, a fuel derived from corn. That makes ethanol an increasingly attractive alternative. And, indeed, ethanol prices climbed 40 cents a gallon this spring, dragging up US corn prices as a result, a boon to Pekin's farmers and industry. Then there's Excel Foundry and Machine, a local factory that makes parts for machinery used in heavy construction and mining operations. Doug Parsons, the current head of this family-owned business, has already relocated 12 percent of the company's production to China in order to hold onto business that would otherwise be lost to China's huge, cheap foundries; during the next decade he may well have to move much more of his production offshore. Parsons has China on his mind for other reasons too: over the past few months, the prices of copper and iron, like those of oil, have skyrocketed in response to Chinese demand, driving up Excel's costs as a result. At the same time, however, his international mining customers have been buying more Excel products in order to feed that same Chinese appetite for commodities. And Parsons himself recently started a new company that he says will build and service advanced rock-crushing machines -- in part to take advantage of the frenzied construction boom under way in China. Because 12 percent of China's exports to the US end up on Wal-Mart's shelves, and because Wal-Mart's trade with China accounts for 1 percent of that country's gross domestic product, the company exerts tremendous downward pressure on prices. Its buying power enables it to dictate, in effect, what a Chinese manufacturer will get for producing goods that American consumers want. By selling Chinese-made portable DVD players with seven-inch LCD screens for less than $200, for instance, Wal-Mart helped to cut the price of these trendy devices in half over the last year. Competitors have to match the chain's prices or go under. Nearly every shopper in Pekin will therefore save money by shopping at Wal-Mart -- which is to say he or she will profit from the retailer's China connection. Of course, this very connection may also contribute to Wal-Mart's ability to drive other Pekin-area stores out of business. |
| tinyurl.com/2t6o2 -> www.nytimes.com/auth/login?URI=http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/04/magazine/04CHINA.html Business What type of ad will you see if your Weather Channel forecast calls for rain? Find out how TV advertisers can use regional conditions to make minute-by-minute advertising choices. The Chinese Century By TED C FISHMAN Published: July 4, 2004 C hina used to be far away, the country at the bottom of the world. According to local legend, Pekin is directly opposite Beijing on the globe. The high-school teams there were still called the Chinks until 1981, when they were renamed the Dragons. A smart and forward-looking decision, it turns out: as is happening throughout the United States, the Pekinese have in their own local ways grown inextricably linked to the Chinese of today. They are now connected not by an imaginary hole through the earth but by the world's shipping lanes, financial markets, telecommunications networks and, above all, the globalization of appetites. Trade deals struck between the US and China in April will, farmers around Pekin hope, lead China to lower its import barriers and buy half a million metric tons of American corn this year. Illinois corn farmers get higher-than-usual prices for their exports because they have ready access to river transportation and in turn to big ports. Pekin is also home to the plant of Aventine Renewable Energy, the nation's second-largest producer of ethanol, a fuel derived from corn. That makes ethanol an increasingly attractive alternative. And, indeed, ethanol prices climbed 40 cents a gallon this spring, dragging up US corn prices as a result, a boon to Pekin's farmers and industry. Then there's Excel Foundry and Machine, a local factory that makes parts for machinery used in heavy construction and mining operations. Doug Parsons, the current head of this family-owned business, has already relocated 12 percent of the company's production to China in order to hold onto business that would otherwise be lost to China's huge, cheap foundries; during the next decade he may well have to move much more of his production offshore. Parsons has China on his mind for other reasons too: over the past few months, the prices of copper and iron, like those of oil, have skyrocketed in response to Chinese demand, driving up Excel's costs as a result. At the same time, however, his international mining customers have been buying more Excel products in order to feed that same Chinese appetite for commodities. And Parsons himself recently started a new company that he says will build and service advanced rock-crushing machines -- in part to take advantage of the frenzied construction boom under way in China. Because 12 percent of China's exports to the US end up on Wal-Mart's shelves, and because Wal-Mart's trade with China accounts for 1 percent of that country's gross domestic product, the company exerts tremendous downward pressure on prices. Its buying power enables it to dictate, in effect, what a Chinese manufacturer will get for producing goods that American consumers want. By selling Chinese-made portable DVD players with seven-inch LCD screens for less than $200, for instance, Wal-Mart helped to cut the price of these trendy devices in half over the last year. Competitors have to match the chain's prices or go under. Nearly every shopper in Pekin will therefore save money by shopping at Wal-Mart -- which is to say he or she will profit from the retailer's China connection. Of course, this very connection may also contribute to Wal-Mart's ability to drive other Pekin-area stores out of business. |
| nytimes.com The New York Times On The Web News Newspaper Current Event |