Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 31181
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2025/07/09 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
7/9     

2004/7/6-7 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:31181 Activity:insanely high
7/6     Any ideas from you folks about how to reverse the decline in
        Engineering education and work in the US?  It seems as though
        this trend isn't changing, and meanwhile interest in Engineering
        by Chinese students just continues to soar.  How long before we
        fall permanently behind?
        \_ I think you have to start young.  They guys I played with building
           legos when we were in preschool are all engineers now.
        \_ Don't worry, we still control the money.
        \_ Engi-what? Can't we just ask God to build us a bridge?
           \_ Dude!  Faith-based architecture, and Evangelical Christian Feng
              Shui!  This would make an excellent Star Trek novel.
        \_ China is still far behind.  Name one decent Chinese high-tech
           company.  Dell is gaining on Legend in China itself.  Cisco
           will slaughter Huawei (how many even heard about Huawei?).
           \_ I was thinking more in terms of the future and the educational
              system, rather than simply in terms of companies.  Engineers
              have to come from somewhere, you don't just pick them off the
              Engineer tree.
              \_ Actually, we have been picking them off the Engineer
                 trees, trees from all over the world, while US
                 produces relatively fewer engineers, they tend to
                 be fairly good ones.
           \_ This is due to a lack of money, not lack of talent.
              \_ Talent is just one of many things.  Lots of countries
                 have talented engineers including Russia and many
                 European countries, but we are still very much ahead
                 of all of them.
                 of all of them.  Why?  Because the best opportunities
                 are in the US, so their best engineers all come here.
                 \_ Again, like I said, money.
                    \_ money is part of it, but also the entrepreneurial
                       spirit, openness, diversity, corporate culture,
                       creative environment, etc.
                       \_ Good point. All these can be learned, to some
                          degree (and Chinese are very good at learning)
                          except money. It will take a while.
                          \_ not sure if it's easy to learn.  the japanese
                             failed to learn it after all these years, and
                             neither did the europeans.  it's kind of like
                             dell.  everyone knows what makes it
                             successful, but they just can't successfully
                             copy its model.  it could be especially
                             difficult for china given its current
                             political structure.  maybe the EU can do
                             it eventually.
                             \_ Here's a NYTimes Magazine article regarding
                                China with regard to this very topic.  Insert
                                obligatory whining about NYTimes if you wish.
                                http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/04/magazine/04CHINA.html
                                http://tinyurl.com/2t6o2 (nytimes.com)
                                \_ I have no doubt China is a juggernaut in
                                   manufacturing, but can it take the next
                                   step up and create its own world-class
                                   companies.  For example, the article
                                   argues that manufacturers now supplying
                                   say Motorola is now selling their own
                                   phones.  Sure.  But can they sell well
                                   outside China's borders?  We have two
                                   business models here.  First is a Chinese
                                   company doing everything, second is a
                                   US company doing the branding, marketing,
                                   design and distribution, and the Chinese
                                   partner doing the manufacturing.  So
                                   far the second model is the better one,
                                   and I am not convinced it's going to
                                   change soon.  Taiwanese companies like Acer
                                   have tried to break into the US market
                                   with their own brand but ended in failure.
                                   Korean companies like Samsung have had
                                   more success, and of course the Japanese
                                   too.  Haven't seen much from China so far.
                                   \_ That's because, unlike Japan who changed
                                      the implication of "made in japan" from
                                      bad to good, stuff made in China hard-
                                      core sucks.
                                      \_ That's partly true.  Even though many
                                         of your nokia, motorola cell phones,
                                      \_ That's partly true.  Even though
                                         China makes many of your nokia,
                                         motorola cell phones,
                                         dell computers, etc.,  they
                                         still need the quality control set
                                         up by your world-class companies
                                         doing the manufacturing there.
                                         But even the Japanese are finding
                                         it necessary to shift production
                                         to China to stay competitive.
                                         Like I said, Chinese manufacturing
                                         coupled with western/japanese
                                         research, design, marketing,
                                         branding and distribution seems to
                                         be the most competitive model at this
                                         juncture.
                                         \_ obviously you know what are you
                                            talking about.  I want to add that
                                            don't discredit Chinese brand
                                            completely yet.  It takes years
                                            if not decades of effort to build
                                            up brand (which implies R&D and
                                            quality control), and Chinese
                                            company has one small advantage
                                            over all its Asian tiger: huge
                                            domestic market.  People may think
                                            Huawei is just a Cisco knock-off,
                                            but if your memory last long enough
                                            you might remember that Japan was
                                            doing the exact same thing in the
                                            past.  Then, there is a company
                                            called TCL, which pumps out
                                            40 million cell phones a year yet
                                            no one really hearrd of them before
                                            With their shear size, they slowly
                                            start to gain advantages in
                                            component price, etc, and soon or
                                            later they will have enough spare
                                            cash to try to establish its own
                                            brand.
                                            \_ Wow.  Eye find it totally
                                               easy two respect you're
                                               arguments.  Keep thee rebukes
                                               cumming.
                                            \_ While market size of China is
                                               big, unlike Japan and South
                                               Korea at a similar stage of
                                               development, due to WTO,
                                               China's market is more
                                               open to foreign companies and
                                               competition, making it tougher
                                               to nurture domestic brands.
                                               The thing about free trade is
                                               that it tends to strengthens
                                               existing competitive advan-
                                               tages, and makes it harder
                                               to develop new competitive
                                               advantages.
        \_ Allow the return of competition to the public schools.
           \_ cf Battle Royale!
           \_ What on earth are you talking about?  Something competing
              with the public schools?  People in the schools competing
              with each other?  How will either of those get Americans
              interested in Engineering again?
              \_ Being graded on merit and not worrying about social issues
                 force students to excel.   That's waned significantly in
                 recent years.
                 \_ Worrying about social issues?  Excuse me?  I think your
                    assertion is lacking in both clarity and evidence.
                    Of course this is the motd, so go for it!  Anyway, I think
                    the below poster is a little closer to the core issue
                    than you.
                    \_ Life skills, multiculturalism, don't make anyone feel
                       bad, screen the Michael Moore movie at the NEA
                       convention.  That kind of crap.
        \_ The Dilbert experience, outsourcing, and long hours of solitary
           staring at computer screens probably isn't that appealing to many
           staring at computer screens probably aren't that appealing to many
           Americans without the get-rich-quick carrot to lead them on.
           Probably there are more opportunities in other fields here in
           America than there are in China or India, so an engineering job
           doesn't seem as desirable here.
2025/07/09 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
7/9     

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www.nytimes.com/2004/07/04/magazine/04CHINA.html
Business What type of ad will you see if your Weather Channel forecast calls for rain? Find out how TV advertisers can use regional conditions to make minute-by-minute advertising choices. The Chinese Century By TED C FISHMAN Published: July 4, 2004 C hina used to be far away, the country at the bottom of the world. According to local legend, Pekin is directly opposite Beijing on the globe. The high-school teams there were still called the Chinks until 1981, when they were renamed the Dragons. A smart and forward-looking decision, it turns out: as is happening throughout the United States, the Pekinese have in their own local ways grown inextricably linked to the Chinese of today. They are now connected not by an imaginary hole through the earth but by the world's shipping lanes, financial markets, telecommunications networks and, above all, the globalization of appetites. Trade deals struck between the US and China in April will, farmers around Pekin hope, lead China to lower its import barriers and buy half a million metric tons of American corn this year. Illinois corn farmers get higher-than-usual prices for their exports because they have ready access to river transportation and in turn to big ports. Pekin is also home to the plant of Aventine Renewable Energy, the nation's second-largest producer of ethanol, a fuel derived from corn. That makes ethanol an increasingly attractive alternative. And, indeed, ethanol prices climbed 40 cents a gallon this spring, dragging up US corn prices as a result, a boon to Pekin's farmers and industry. Then there's Excel Foundry and Machine, a local factory that makes parts for machinery used in heavy construction and mining operations. Doug Parsons, the current head of this family-owned business, has already relocated 12 percent of the company's production to China in order to hold onto business that would otherwise be lost to China's huge, cheap foundries; during the next decade he may well have to move much more of his production offshore. Parsons has China on his mind for other reasons too: over the past few months, the prices of copper and iron, like those of oil, have skyrocketed in response to Chinese demand, driving up Excel's costs as a result. At the same time, however, his international mining customers have been buying more Excel products in order to feed that same Chinese appetite for commodities. And Parsons himself recently started a new company that he says will build and service advanced rock-crushing machines -- in part to take advantage of the frenzied construction boom under way in China. Because 12 percent of China's exports to the US end up on Wal-Mart's shelves, and because Wal-Mart's trade with China accounts for 1 percent of that country's gross domestic product, the company exerts tremendous downward pressure on prices. Its buying power enables it to dictate, in effect, what a Chinese manufacturer will get for producing goods that American consumers want. By selling Chinese-made portable DVD players with seven-inch LCD screens for less than $200, for instance, Wal-Mart helped to cut the price of these trendy devices in half over the last year. Competitors have to match the chain's prices or go under. Nearly every shopper in Pekin will therefore save money by shopping at Wal-Mart -- which is to say he or she will profit from the retailer's China connection. Of course, this very connection may also contribute to Wal-Mart's ability to drive other Pekin-area stores out of business.
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tinyurl.com/2t6o2 -> www.nytimes.com/auth/login?URI=http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/04/magazine/04CHINA.html
Business What type of ad will you see if your Weather Channel forecast calls for rain? Find out how TV advertisers can use regional conditions to make minute-by-minute advertising choices. The Chinese Century By TED C FISHMAN Published: July 4, 2004 C hina used to be far away, the country at the bottom of the world. According to local legend, Pekin is directly opposite Beijing on the globe. The high-school teams there were still called the Chinks until 1981, when they were renamed the Dragons. A smart and forward-looking decision, it turns out: as is happening throughout the United States, the Pekinese have in their own local ways grown inextricably linked to the Chinese of today. They are now connected not by an imaginary hole through the earth but by the world's shipping lanes, financial markets, telecommunications networks and, above all, the globalization of appetites. Trade deals struck between the US and China in April will, farmers around Pekin hope, lead China to lower its import barriers and buy half a million metric tons of American corn this year. Illinois corn farmers get higher-than-usual prices for their exports because they have ready access to river transportation and in turn to big ports. Pekin is also home to the plant of Aventine Renewable Energy, the nation's second-largest producer of ethanol, a fuel derived from corn. That makes ethanol an increasingly attractive alternative. And, indeed, ethanol prices climbed 40 cents a gallon this spring, dragging up US corn prices as a result, a boon to Pekin's farmers and industry. Then there's Excel Foundry and Machine, a local factory that makes parts for machinery used in heavy construction and mining operations. Doug Parsons, the current head of this family-owned business, has already relocated 12 percent of the company's production to China in order to hold onto business that would otherwise be lost to China's huge, cheap foundries; during the next decade he may well have to move much more of his production offshore. Parsons has China on his mind for other reasons too: over the past few months, the prices of copper and iron, like those of oil, have skyrocketed in response to Chinese demand, driving up Excel's costs as a result. At the same time, however, his international mining customers have been buying more Excel products in order to feed that same Chinese appetite for commodities. And Parsons himself recently started a new company that he says will build and service advanced rock-crushing machines -- in part to take advantage of the frenzied construction boom under way in China. Because 12 percent of China's exports to the US end up on Wal-Mart's shelves, and because Wal-Mart's trade with China accounts for 1 percent of that country's gross domestic product, the company exerts tremendous downward pressure on prices. Its buying power enables it to dictate, in effect, what a Chinese manufacturer will get for producing goods that American consumers want. By selling Chinese-made portable DVD players with seven-inch LCD screens for less than $200, for instance, Wal-Mart helped to cut the price of these trendy devices in half over the last year. Competitors have to match the chain's prices or go under. Nearly every shopper in Pekin will therefore save money by shopping at Wal-Mart -- which is to say he or she will profit from the retailer's China connection. Of course, this very connection may also contribute to Wal-Mart's ability to drive other Pekin-area stores out of business.
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