6/28 I watched F911 and frankly I don't see anything controversial except
its choice of targets. This movie does not stand out at all in the
technics it employs to make its pointed criticism. OK, It does not
compare to the artistically great but evil propaganda from the last
century, nor is it for publication on Nature or Daedalus. It is about
as wicked and biased as the all the mainstream network news,
documentaries, or frontline exposes, i.e. the normal media you immerse
yourself in and rave about on the motd, freerepublic or slashdot.,
perhaps even a tiny bit less so. If you have a problem with its
fairness, you can't just cherry pick this one. You should disconnect
yourself from TV, printed media, internet etc even when they are just
picking on M$, EPA, or Bangladesh. On the other hand, if you hate F911
because you think strong criticism of our Leader is unpatriotic and
challenge to the upper echelon of society is subversive, you can
and should make your point directly without shame.
\_ I disagree. I think Moore is qualitatively different from mainstream
news. His vibe as entertainer reminds me of Limbaugh, only he
uses film as his medium, not talk radio. -- ilyas
\_ I disagree. I think Moore is qualitatively different from
mainstream news. His vibe as entertainer reminds me of Limbaugh,
only he uses film as his medium, not talk radio. -- ilyas
\_ What is the big deal about this movie? The dude sounds like a huge
retard who doesn't know jack about anything and just goes around
mouthing off. Whatever.
\_ The "big deal" seems to be created by the staunch right-wing
who have never seen the movie (or anything by Michael Moore)
but telling others that it is an un-American movie and that
they shouldn't watch it.
\_ Ad-hominem attack #2.
\_ How the hell is this "ad-hominem"?
\_ I was wondering that too -AH#1
\_ I don't care what movie people go and see. You want
to pay $9 and see the movie, bully for you. Whatever.
To me it doesn't look like a good movie and the comments
the director makes make it sound like a terrible movie.
But then again, maybe I'm not the best judge of such
things since I only watch movies with the words 'Star Trek'
in the title.
\_ Well, I personally didn't like the movie myself and,
like so many movies I've seen, wished I didn't pay
$10 for it. But whether a movie's good or bad is a
matter of opinion from people who've seen it. What
I think is absured are all these people who haven't
seen the movie and are telling others to boycott the
movie and calling them unpatriotic otherwise.
\_ Ad-hominem attack #1.
\_ It's not ad-hominem since Moore is the director and also in
the movie.
\_ people, please stop putting a hyphen in ad hominem. do it
for the children.
\_ OMG, YOU HUGE RETARD, U DONT NO JACK, QUIT MOUTHING OFF!!!1
\_ Yes it is. You insulted MM without adressing any of the
content of the movie.
\_ Would it be better if he said "He seems like a huge/fat
retard, speaking through a megaphone outside the capital"
He's in the movie, so attacking him is attacking one of
the characters/protaganists of the film. I vaguely
" He's in the movie, so attacking him is attacking one
of the characters/protaganists of the film. I vaguely
enjoyed the film, but not really the parts that he was
\_ Saying he made an ass of himself in front of the
\_ the british calls it arse
White House is a criticism of the movie. Just saying
he's "a huge retard who doesn't know jack about
\_ who's jack?
anything" is a personal attack. If you had said
"MM says foobar, which is wrong." that would be
\_ what's MM?
\_ what's foobar?
a fair criticism.
in. I don't like watching fat people in movies/TV.
\_ Whatever. I've read speeches/interviews with this guy
(about this and other movies). He has a very one sided
view about stuff and passes it off as informed and
objective. If he was honest about the fact that his
movies and writing are anything but objective then he
might not come off as such a huge jackass.
\_ When did Moore ever say he was objective? As far as I
know, he has always tried to push his agenda.
\_ This is one of those things I don't need to see to know I won't
like it. I heard enough about the Passion of Christ to know I
wouldn't want to see that. I eventually saw Titanic but wished I
hadn't. Really, MM is just about self glorification. In some ways,
he is very much like Limbaugh. The difference I see is that I can
pick up the phone and challenge Rush 5 days a week any time during
his 2 to 4 hour show and put him on the spot and make him explain
if he said something I disagree with or if he twisted something. I
do not have that option with MM. I only have people like this to
"talk" with about him:
Boredcast Message from 'brain': Mon Jun 28 08:34:19 2004
if someone who is not a raging asshole sees that movie,
I can pretty much gaurantee they will vote against Bush
\_ Interesting. This is the usual trick of defending your
opinon by taking an example of your opponents out of
context (like when he is stoned or walling) or
representativeness and ridicue it. This is something MM
might been guilty, but see it is SO mainstream.
context (like when he is stoned or walling, which is same)
or representativeness and ridicule it. This is something MM
might been guilty of, but see it is SO mainstream.
\_ I indented your interruption bc it looks like a continue
of the rest of my post. So, the wall log is there. What
did I take out of context? What exactly is the context
on the wall log that I have unfairly smeared brain or
taken his post out of context? It's there. Maybe I'm
blind or something. Please explain. As far as stoned or
walling goes, I get the same replies on the motd and the
wall is covered in that sort of noise. I picked the
first one I saw related to the topic. I didn't dig for
a special case. I didn't have to. It was said, that's
who I have the opportunity to discuss anything with and
I still can't chat with MM and I can still call Rush 5
days a week. Please explain my 'trick' and maybe answer
some of my other questions and points as well. Thank
you. --c
\_ Um, perhaps becuase you WEREN'T discussing it with
brian, and pulled his quote from wall to try to
illustrate an impervious liberal veneer. If you
had engaged him, on wall, or by email, you might
have the chance to find that he is intelligent,
reasonable, and possibly could give you something
to think about on the subject. But you seem to
like your blinders. --scotsman
\_ I must be an asshole -- I am voting Nader. This
brain fellow better be using some sort of
hyperbole, because it sure sounds like he is
mouthing off mindlessly on wall. -- ilyas
\_ Why don't you go ask him? Something like:
"Hi brain, I don't know you, but on wall today
you sounded like you were mouthing off
mindlessly. Were you using some sort of
hyperbole?"
\_ you'll notice I said "against Bush" ilyas.
Not "for Kerry." You don't know me, so you
don't know my politics. But you haven't asked.
go ahead, ask me! I'm not a hostile person.
most of the time. Unlike most people, I'm not
offended that you don't agree with me. It's a
free country, and it doesn't make you less of an
American. My point with the movie is: regardless
of your politics, it is pretty hard to see thepain
of a mother who has lost her son to a war cometo
grips with the realization that there may not have
been a good reason for it. And this experience
will make you ask yourself questions; perhaps
questions you should have been asking yourself
previously. To ignore the possibility of a new
experience is a sign of intellectual and in this
case moral weakness. Just think about it. -brain
free country, and it doesn't make you less of
an American. My point with the movie is:
regardless of your politics, it is pretty hard
to see the pain of a mother who has lost her
son to a war come to grips with the realization
that there may not have been a good reason for
it. And this experience will make you ask
yourself questions; perhaps questions you
should have been asking yourself previously.
To ignore the possibility of a new experience
is a sign of intellectual and in this case
moral weakness. Just think about it. -brain
\_ Heh. I am voting for Nader because CA is
not a battleground state, and because I wish
to splinter the liberal vote further by
encouraging Nader to run again.
I sympathize with people (both American and
otherwise) who were harmed by Bush's
policies, but I think your conclusion on,
for instance the worth of the war, seems a
little premature. Even if Bush lied through
his teeth about the reasons, the actual
positive effects of the war (of a
humanitarian nature, for example) is
something neither you nor indeed the mother
of a slain soldier should discount quite so
readily. As for ignoring the possibility of
a new experience, with all due respect to
Mr. Moore, I do not consider his films an
intellectual experience at all. I have
plenty of intelligent liberal friends to
argue with. -- ilyas
\_ off topic I guess but I'm not totally
convinced that Bush has zero chance here.
anyway, I'll vote for Kerry just because
I believe he's a better human being. I
don't think the Iraq action itself should
be the basis of voting. Bush bothers me
across a lot of fronts independent of
conservative/liberal politics. -IND voter
\_ and what is my conclusion on the worth
of the war? I have never even brought it
up, and honestly it's not the reason I
think Bush is a terrible leader. You need
to understand that, at his core, Bush does
not value your welfare, nor that of
America, and that his policies, not just
with regard to Iraq, are self-serving
and evil. Look at the results of Leave
No Child Behind, or what has happened to
the FCC or EPA's policies. The Clear
Skies Initiative. Even a little research
will show you a larger picture than just
Iraq. Not the ideology, I'm talking about
the actual, measurable results. This is
important stuff here, and unless you
personally own a gigantic manufacturing or
oil corporation you have personally not
benefitted from any of these things. Do
the math on the dividend tax cut- how much
money did you save? How much money was
saved by others, never to be circulated
back into our economy? -brain
\_ I find Brian often weighs in on things
he has not given much thought to or
is not especially knowledgeable about.
In some cases I assume it is just
immaturity, but in this case I think he
is carried away by emotion. I've known
him for a little while and I'm not a knee-
jerk liberal. I think part of his problem
is he gets all of his news from web sites
and soundbite sources. But there are some
niches he does seem knowledgeable. But
they are sort of superficial subjects.
\_ I'm guessing you are referring to the
tax law discussion, in which I was shouted
down for trying to save you fools a few
thousand dollars. If someone shows me I am
misinformed, I always apologise. Always.
But I'm not going to argue with you on wall
when I can tell you are not interested in
discussion. While you guys snipe and rotin
your cubes, other people are running around
thousand dollars. If someone shows me I
am misinformed, I always apologise.
Always. But I'm not going to argue with
you on wall when I can tell you are not
interested in discussion.
While you guys snipe and rot in your
cubes, other people are running around
the world accomplishing great things. So
forgive me for voicing an opinion, or sharing
a piece of very expensive information it cost
me a great deal to obtain. Information that
forgive me for voicing an opinion, or
sharing a piece of very expensive
information it cost me a great deal to
obtain. Information that
came from my corporate tax lawyer. -brain
\_ It looks like someone made Brian cry.
\_ nah it's cool. I enjoy spending
your tax money. -brain
\_ You'd have to, if you like Moore's
movies with good conscience.
\_ I'm not sure what you mean.
Michael Moore is funded by
tax dollars?
\_ I agree with this point as well. The "conservative"
poster has taken the wall of one user and generalized
it to be the mindset of all liberals. This is not a
convincing way to make an argument, and ironically makes
the op look close-minded.
Now then, what's the point of even trying to talk to some of you
when disagreeing with you or your media heroes make me an asshole
in your eyes? I don't think any of you are assholes simply for
\_ It doesn't, and I never said that. Interesting that you didn't
bring this up when I said it... No, what makes you an asshole is
writing this Rush Limbaugh diatribe in which you ascribe all
kinds of motives to a single portion of my conversation with
Rand. Maybe O'Reilly actually... Limbaugh never cut his
guests' microphone. -brain
\_ It doesn't, and you know that's not what that wall meant.
Interesting that you didn't bring this up when I said it...
No, what makes you an asshole is writing this (anonymous)
Rush Limbaugh diatribe in which you ascribe all kinds of
motives to a single portion of my conversation with Rand.
Maybe O'Reilly actually... Limbaugh never cut his guests'
microphone. -brain
disagreeing with me. I don't even think most of you are assholes.
If you are an asshole, you know it and you're proud of it and I'm
ok with that. But don't call me names because I don't like your
hero or I disagree with your political philosophy. If I said the
same as the above but turned it around you'd call me a right wing
nutter and dig up your motd watch logs to find out who I was so
you could give me some twink points or try to get me squished. As
far as watching MM goes, I don't have the time or money to waste on
things that get reviews like the above. --conservative
\_ This is why I thought F911 was a weak movie. Contrary to brain's
suggestion, I don't think it'll win over any conservative votes.
At best (and I don't think it'll do this either), it might
"energize the party base".
\_ It doesn't have to do that stuff to not be a weak movie. I'll
probably watch it at some point. I never watched Bowling just
because the subject matter seemed too boring. I don't expect
it to be a religious experience, but some insight and
entertainment.
\_ Why would I want to pay $9 and waste 2 hours to watch MORE
crappy propaganda? Or even GOOD propaganda for that matter?
\_ Or any movie. period.
\_ You watch for the footage they don't show on CNN.
The Emperor has no clothes, and we want to see that. ;-)
\_ good point. You could probably get a bootleg, or sneak into the
movie... or just go to a matinee! |
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