Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 31032
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2004/6/27-28 [Reference/History/WW2/Germany] UID:31032 Activity:high
6/27    come on... watch the trailer.  You know you want it.
                http://www.fahrenheit911.com/trailer
        \_ I can load up propaganda tapes from Stalin, Hitler, Musselini,
           and others if I wanted and they're better at it.
           \_ That you would even think to compare Michael Moore to Hitler and
              Stalin says a lot.
           \_ It's funny how when people like Franken or Moore create
              satirical books or movies about the right-wing propoganda
              machine, they themselves are called propagandists.
              \_ Two wrongs don't make a right.  Didn't your father teach
                 you anything?
                 \_ How is satire a wrong? Of course, in Al Franken's
                    attempt to be humorous, he actually makes factual
                    references. But I guess many people these days
                    interpret factual and funny as propoganda.
           \_ I'm really tired of Moore being called a propagandist.  He's
              a fucking filmmaker.  He tells his story.  He's not selling
              any bill of goods but his own.  If you don't buy it, don't buy
              it.  He's a citizen who sees some things that he thinks is wrong
              and points them out.  He urges others to take part in their own
              democracy.  To me, that's patriotism, not propoganda.
              \_ He sells a story for the purpose of making money while at
                 the same time spreading lies which is actually worse than
                 the Axis powers.  They weren't making money off their lies.
                 \_ Yes, Michael Moore is so unethical for making money off
                    his work.  He should aspire to the moral standard of Stalin
                    and only use his work to opress people.
                    \_ No.  It's the same.  He takes advantage of the
                       uneducated masses who still think everything on the
                       screen presented as documentary is truth.  He's
                       cynical and has a dark soul.  And you bought into his
                       lies and even worse, defend them.
                       \_ Oh, you mean the same people who think everything
                          the president says is true?   Cynical?  Dark soul?
                          I'm sure glad nobody like that is in our government.
                          \_ No, I mean the same people who think everything
                             the President says is a lie because MM told them
                             so, even when it isn't so.
                             \_ Wow, so MM makes money off his work, and this
                                makes him comparable to Stalin and Hitler?!?
                                So, what, Bay Area drivers suck, so the BA is
                                comparable to Auschwitz?  Maybe we can make
                                AL Franken into Pontius Pilate for criticizing
                                Bush.  Dumbass.
                             \_ You seem convinced that this movie is the
                                run of the mill pack-o-lies.  Have you seen
                                it yet?  If you have point out some lies.
                                If not, fuck off.
                                \_ I don't care about this discussion, but
                                   I always think this kind of defense is
                                   funny.  "Just because MM has lied
                                  every OTHER time, doesn't mean he's
                                  lying this time!  Do you have proof
                                  he's lying?" Ooookay... -jrleek
                                  \_ Your "every other time" claim needs
                                     some support.  And yes I've read the
                                     claims of lies in B4C, and I haven't
                                     seen any that weren't real stretches.
                                     --scotsman
                                     \_ I was paraphrasing the post I was
                                        replying to.  -jrleek
                                        \_ So you're not jumping on the
                                           "Moore is a liar" bandwagon?
                                           --scotsman
                             \_ You seem convinced that this movie is simply
                                a pack-o-lies.  Have you seen it yet?  If
                                you have point out some lies.  If not, fuck off.
                             \_ Oh, so you're upset because Michael Moore is
                                making Bush's enemies mad at Bush.  Wow,
                                you're right, he really is a dark soul.
           \_ Yeah, but anti-Stalin/Hitler/Mussolini tapes ring of truth,
              just like anti-Bush footage.  Clinton footage -- well, everyone
              knows Monica gave him head and he's a slickster.  Kerry, well,
              he hasn't gotten his chance yet.
              \_ I wasn't saying MM was similar to anti-Stalin, etc tapes.  I
                 I was saying he uses the same rhetorical tactics as those
                 people and you're all eating it up because you're being told
                 a few things that are true or kind of true so it has a ring
                 of truth and then he slips in the lies which you swallow
                 whole.
                \_ can you tell us what the lies you speak of are? oh, wait,
                   you don't want to see the propaganda, so you can't tell us.
        \_ Even Christopher Hitchens, who hates Ronald Reagen, wrote an
           an article called "The Lies of Michael Moore."
           http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723
           \_ Ooh, now _there's_ some glowing credentials.  Hitchens is a
              scumbag editorializor who has his own massive problem with
              facts.
              \- Hitchens more or less hates everyone, except maybe
                 George Orwell. I dont think anybody actually likes
                 Hitchens in a friendly kind of way. --psb
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slate.msn.com/id/2102723
By Christopher Hitchens Posted Monday, June 21, 2004, at 12:26 PM PT Michael Moore Moore: Trying to have it three ways One of the many problems with the American left, and indeed of the American left, has been its image and self-image as something rather too solemn, mirthless, herbivorous, dull, monochrome, righteous, and boring. How many times, in my old days at The Nation magazine, did I hear wistful and semienvious ruminations? I used privately to hope that the emphasis, if the comrades ever got around to it, would be on the first of those and not the second. But the meetings themselves were so mind-numbing and lugubrious that I thought the danger of success on either front was infinitely slight. Nonetheless, it seems that an answer to this long-felt need is finally beginning to emerge. I exempt Al Franken's unintentionally funny Air America network, to which I gave a couple of interviews in its early days. There, one could hear the reassuring noise of collapsing scenery and tripped-over wires and be reminded once again that correct politics and smooth media presentation are not even distant cousins. With Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11, however, an entirely new note has been struck. org and the filmic standards, if not exactly the filmic skills, of Sergei Eisenstein or Leni Riefenstahl. To describe this film as dishonest and demagogic would almost be to promote those terms to the level of respectability. To describe this film as a piece of crap would be to run the risk of a discourse that would never again rise above the excremental. To describe it as an exercise in facile crowd-pleasing would be too obvious. Fahrenheit 9/11 is a sinister exercise in moral frivolity, crudely disguised as an exercise in seriousness. It is also a spectacle of abject political cowardice masking itself as a demonstration of "dissenting" bravery. In late 2002, almost a year after the al-Qaida assault on American society, I had an onstage debate with Michael Moore at the Telluride Film Festival. In the course of this exchange, he stated his view that Osama Bin Laden should be considered innocent until proven guilty. The intervention in Afghanistan, he maintained, had been at least to that extent unjustified. Something--I cannot guess what, since we knew as much then as we do now--has since apparently persuaded Moore that Osama Bin Laden is as guilty as hell. Indeed, Osama is suddenly so guilty and so all-powerful that any other discussion of any other topic is a dangerous "distraction" from the fight against him. I believe that I understand the convenience of this late conversion. Still from Fahrenheit 9/11 Recruiters in Michigan Fahrenheit 9/11 makes the following points about Bin Laden and about Afghanistan, and makes them in this order: 1) The Bin Laden family (if not exactly Osama himself) had a close if convoluted business relationship with the Bush family, through the Carlyle Group. Either the Saudis run US policy (through family ties or overwhelming economic interest), or they do not. As allies and patrons of the Taliban regime, they either opposed Bush's removal of it, or they did not. If we were going to make sure no Taliban or al-Qaida forces survived or escaped, we would have had to be more ruthless than I suspect that Mr Moore is really recommending. And these are simply observations on what is "in" the film. If we turn to the facts that are deliberately left out, we discover that there is an emerging Afghan army, that the country is now a joint NATO responsibility and thus under the protection of the broadest military alliance in history, that it has a new constitution and is preparing against hellish odds to hold a general election, and that at least a million and a half of its former refugees have opted to return. I don't think a pipeline is being constructed yet, not that Afghanistan couldn't do with a pipeline. But a highway from Kabul to Kandahar--an insurance against warlordism and a condition of nation-building--is nearing completion with infinite labor and risk. We also discover that the parties of the Afghan secular left--like the parties of the Iraqi secular left--are strongly in favor of the regime change. But this is not the sort of irony in which Moore chooses to deal. He prefers leaden sarcasm to irony and, indeed, may not appreciate the distinction. In a long and paranoid (and tedious) section at the opening of the film, he makes heavy innuendoes about the flights that took members of the Bin Laden family out of the country after Sept. I banged on about this myself at the time and wrote a Nation column drawing attention to the groveling Larry King interview with the insufferable Prince Bandar, which Moore excerpts. However, recent developments have not been kind to our Mike. In the interval between Moore's triumph at Cannes and the release of the film in the United States, the 9/11 commission has found nothing to complain of in the timing or arrangement of the flights. he, and he alone, took the responsibility for authorizing those Saudi departures. This might not matter so much to the ethos of Fahrenheit 9/11, except that--as you might expect--Clarke is presented throughout as the brow-furrowed ethical hero of the entire post-9/11 moment. And it does not seem very likely that, in his open admission about the Bin Laden family evacuation, Clarke is taking a fall, or a spear in the chest, for the Bush administration. So, that's another bust for this windy and bloated cinematic "key to all mythologies." A film that bases itself on a big lie and a big misrepresentation can only sustain itself by a dizzying succession of smaller falsehoods, beefed up by wilder and (if possible) yet more-contradictory claims. President Bush is accused of taking too many lazy vacations. I say "shows," even though this photograph is on-screen so briefly that if you sneeze or blink, you won't recognize the other figure. A meeting with the prime minister of the United Kingdom, or at least with this prime minister, is not a goof-off. The president is also captured in a well-worn TV news clip, on a golf course, making a boilerplate response to a question on terrorism and then asking the reporters to watch his drive. Well, that's what you get if you catch the president on a golf course. If Eisenhower had done this, as he often did, it would have been presented as calm statesmanship. If Clinton had done it, as he often did, it would have shown his charm. More interesting is the moment where Bush is shown frozen on his chair at the infant school in Florida, looking stunned and useless for seven whole minutes after the news of the second plane on 9/11. Many are those who say that he should have leaped from his stool, adopted a Russell Crowe stance, and gone to work. But if he had done any such thing then (as he did with his "Let's roll" and "dead or alive" remarks a month later), half the Michael Moore community would now be calling him a man who went to war on a hectic, crazed impulse. The other half would be saying what they already say--that he knew the attack was coming, was using it to cement himself in power, and couldn't wait to get on with his coup. This is the line taken by Gore Vidal and by a scandalous recent book that also revives the charge of FDR's collusion over Pearl Harbor. At least Moore's film should put the shameful purveyors of that last theory back in their paranoid box. But it won't because it encourages their half-baked fantasies in so many other ways. From the night sky come the terror weapons of American imperialism. Watching the clips Moore uses, and recalling them well, I can recognize various Saddam palaces and military and police centers getting the treatment. In fact, I don't think Al Jazeera would, on a bad day, have transmitted anything so utterly propagandistic. You would also be led to think that the term "civilian casualty" had not even been in the Iraqi vocabulary until March 2003. I remember asking Moore at Telluride if he was or was not a pacifist. He would not give a straight answer then, and he doesn't now, either. I'll just say that the "insurgent" side is presented in this film as justifiably outraged, whereas the ...