6/25    Why did both the Mongols and the Manchus move their capitals to Beijing
        when they conquered China respectively?  Why would a superior country
        want to move its capital from home to the inferior country that it
        conquered?
        \_ Haven't you ever read The Prince by Machiavelli?  A full explanation
           of why it's a good idea to move your rule to conquered territory
           is contained in that.
        \_ Your lack of historical knowledge is truly appalling. The Mongols
           and the Manchus conquered China with the help of other Chinese
           factions. In order to maintain China as a unified whole it was
           always necessary to keep the capital in Beijing. Also, the
           Mongol hordes were nomadic so they didn't exactly have a
           concept of centralized government or planning. In order to
           rule China proper they had to inherit the vast bureaucracy of
           the previous dynasty.
           \_ I see.  My historial knowledge only came from three years of
              Chinese Histroy classes in high school plus all those Mandarin
              TV dramas on Ch26 over the years.
                \_ next time stay awakey
                \_ next time stay awake
           \_ Thanks, Pai Mei.  Now, go ahead and eat those fish heads.
           \_ I would like to add several things.  First.  Beijing was a
              small town prior to Mogols established its dynasty.  The logic
              behind establishing a city up in the north is that, believe or
              not, they want to be able to bail out relatively easily in case
              things went wrong (which it did in a relatively a short time of
              120 years).  Ming Dynasty, the dynasty established by ethnic
              Hans, originally established the capital in Nanjing.  It took
              a political coup and an emporer of grand vision to decide that
              it's easier to finish those mongols off if the capital is up
              north.  Manchus, the dynasty after that, decided that they
              really don't need to burn down the perfectly fine palace like
              all other ruling family did.  So, they inheired the palace and
              expanded.  Mind you that at the time, Manchuria was three times
              larger than what present Manchuria was.  So, lattatude wise, it
              was pretty close the centered.            -kngharv
                 [motd formatd: learn to queue in line]
              \_ Thanks for the insight!  -- OP
              \_ I am sure OP was a troll but just to amend what you wrote.
                 Beijing has been a town of varying significance for a very
                 long time, going back to at least to the 11th century BC when
                 it was the capital of the principality of Yan.  There were
                 many periods prior to the Mongol when it was not a small town.
                 many periods prior to the Mongol when it was >> a small town.
              \_ nah, before the Mongols invaded China, northern China was
                 already conquered by the Jurchens and it is called the
                 Jin.  Southern China is called the Sung (or Southern Sung,
                 after it lost the north).  Jin fell in 1234, and Mongols
                 started building Daidu (Beijing) in 1267.  Sung survived until
                 1279.  I think the Mongols were just too lazy to move again.
                 Daidu is also close to the capital of Jin and the capital
                 of the Liao, so it's not like it's built out of nowhere.
                 Same for the Manchus, they did not have a tight grip on
                 southern China until much later after they conquered the
                 north, so they already established the capital in the north.
                 \_ All the stuff you said didn't contradict with what I
                    mentioned.  Again, there are a lot of historical reasons
                    why Beijing became a city of importance.  And to the Han
                    Chauvinist below, Beijing became important mainly due to
                    minority tribe's effort.  Important Han capitals are
                    LuoYang, KaiFeng, and to lesser extent, ChangAn.
                                -mutt blood
                    \_ ok ok, I don't disagree with you.  Another reason
                       is simply that the capital followed the economic
                       center of the country, which was originally
                       further west in chang'an and luoyang with its rich
                       loess plains.  later on, due to weather changes,
                       that region became less important.
                       And then whomever ruled the Zhong Yuan plain, the
                       biggest undivided (by rivers and mountains)
                       piece of real estate of China, tend to eventually
                       conquer and rule the whole country, so the capital
                       moved there (kaifung, liao and jin capitals, daidu,
                       ...).  Economic center later shifted further to the
                       south, so sometimes, a southern capital was also
                       viable.  Another argument is that China's threats
                       historically (and in modern times too) tend to come
                       from the north, so it was better to have the capital
                       there to better deal with these threats.  Army
                       became more centrally controlled (to reduce chance
                       of regional "warlords" becoming too powerful), but
                       then it needed to be closer to where the external
                       threat was.  Having it in the Yangtze region would
                       mean the reaction time would be way too slow for
                       any disturbance in the north.
        \_ Better housing?  And easier to govern the country from a more
           central location?  Just my guess.
           \_ Central location is the most common capital placement,
              though border changes may leave the original capital
              in an unusual position (Washington DC).
              \_ But Beijing's location is strikingly similar to Washington DC.
                 It was already not the central location when they moved the
                 capitals there.
        \_ better babes!
                \_ Have you been to beijing?
                   \_ GWB has and he agrees.
                      \_ GWB isn't looking for tail.  You mean Clinton.
                         \_ GWB went to Beijing decades ago so he could cuz
                         \_ GWB went to Beijing decades ago cuz
                            of the hot babes there.  He admitted as much.
                   \_ Have you been to Mongolia?
                   \_ Are you gay?
                   \_ I like this beijing babe:
                        http://starfaye.free.fr/english/Bio1.htm
                        \_ This is not a babe. This is a stick insect in a
                           sweater.
                      She is Manchu / Jurchen ... whose ancestors ruled
                      northern China when the Mongols invaded.
        \_ Why did the europeans move their capitals to america?
           \_ They did?  Wasn't London still the British capital back then, for
              example?
              \_ That's the capital for the folks left behind.
        \_ why not?  really, why not?  Things like this happened more often
           in history (not just in China) than you may have heard.
        \_ Because they knew their civilization sucked, and in the long run,
           their only hope was to get assimilated into the Great Han Civilization
                                                - Great Han Chauvinist
           their only hope was to get assimilated into the Great Han
           Civilization                  - Great Han Chauvinist
           \_ ohh please, I can almost guarentee that you are a mutt too.
              It's impossible to find pure Han in China after thousands of
              years of wild sex.
              \_ can't you tell what is a troll?
                 \_ unfortunately, there are small number of people who really
                    think that way, I am afraid this is not.
                    \_ But you are wrong in this case.  Real Han Chauvinists
                       don't call themselves Chauvinist, except for this one
                       kook on the usenet.  By the way, do you have some
                       historical grievances against the Great Han
                       Civilization?  Did we subject your lesser barbaric
                       "civilization" to annual tribute of material goods
                       and beautiful women, as acknowledgement of our
                       superiority?  Did we administer a tender loving
                       chastisement on your minor tribe when you tried to rebel
                       like a naughty child?  Believe me, it's for your own
                       good, and only helps to pull you out of your miserable
                       stone-age barbaric existence.  Learn to live with it
                       or be conquered.  Either way you will be assimilated
                       into the Great Han Civilization.  Don't choose the
                       painful way.                - Great Han Chauvinist
           \_ Why do you hate Mongols?
              \_ Goddamn Mongolian! You break down my shitty wall last time!