6/23    Does street sweeping actually serve a purpose, or is this just another
        Big Government conspiracy to give sinecures to the well-connected?
        \_ You think the well-connected are driving street sweepers and
           parking control vehicles?
        \_ It keeps things looking nice, and in many places generates extra
           revenue from parking tickets.  win win!
           \_ It also prevents trash from accumulating inside storm drains
              so when the rains come, you don't get clogged drains/sewers.
              \_ At the west end of the Sunset district in SF, sand from the
                 beach is a bigger problem than trash, and the streets are
                 swept twice a week.
        \_ It probably does not have to be done every week, but when you
           see places where it's not done regularly, you will notice!
           \_ Many places in oakland, it's every other night.  Seems more like
              a money grab to me.
              \_ Many businesses hose down the area in front of their stores.
                 The trash that accumulates there ends up in the gutter.
                 Without street cleaning, all of that ends up in drains/sewers.
                 Flooding ensues.
                 \-in my neighborhood, weekly seems excessive [p'hill, SF].
                   i think it is a patronage system [more street sweeping
                   volume = more jobs to be handed out by the city, or larger
                   contract]. as well as a revenue system. i think the fines
                   are way to high [i think they are $40 in SF now]. --psb
                   \_ You are giving way too much credit for such low level
                      patronage. And if the fine were cheaper, they'd never
                      get some SF streets swept.
                          \- can you explain to me why the blocked fire hydrant
                             fine is lower than the street sweeping fine?
                             because the leaves in the gutters spontaneously
                             ignite? how about cracking down on illegitimate
                             handicapped permits. my understanding is there
                             are more of thise permits issued in SF than there
                             are parking meters. --psb
                             \- hmm according to a different source, the FH
                                may $50 vs $40. --psb
                             \_ Because if your car is in the way, the fire
                                department can destroy it to reach the hydrant.
                                Fines are meant to deter, not overly punish.
                                \_ Not quite.  Fines are meant to be pesky. Low
                                   enough that it doesn't deter, high enough
                                   to be worth paying the issuer.  I'll go back
                                   to the Oakland example.  You can't find
                                   parking anywhere around  Grand.  It's 2
                                   in the morning.  You're exhausted.  The
                                   street sweeping time ends at 3.  Is it
                                   worth $30 to drive around for 1/2hr trying
                                   to find a different spot, or to go to
                                   Merritt Diner until 3?  Sometimes yes,
                                   sometimes no.
                      \_ lol. spoken like someone who's never tried to get
                         a low level job working for a big city or known anyone
                         who has.
                         know the right person -> city job -> sit on your ass
                         and get >50k/yr
                         This low level patronage system is what makes the
                         Democratic party power machine work in big cities...
                         how do you think that the corrupt Democratic mayors
                         keep their ironclad support from the Unions for
                         decades?
                         \_ Your tinfoil hat's crooked.
                         \_ Obviously someone who doesn't understand what true
                            patronage is. Street sweeping, while not overly
                            difficult. Hardly falls under patronage.
                            \_ You.  Have.  Some.  Punctuation.  Difficulties.
                               \_ Uhm...he has *one*.
                                  \_ But it's a really stupid one.
        \_ If you want to see sinecure in action, check out the guys who
           clean up the parks; on any given morning, they spend 2-3 hours
           sitting in their trucks reading newspapers.
           \_ I cleaned up peoples park for a couple weeks.  most of the
              people cleaning the parks are doing community service because
              they did something stupid and are carrying out some sort of
              sentence.
           \_ Just because municipal employees are overpaid and lazy doesn't
              mean they got their jobs through patronage (at least the
              low-level employees).  It's hard to fire someone and there's not
              too much pressure for good performance.