Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 30752
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2004/6/11 [Health] UID:30752 Activity:high
6/7     Deleting this post is futile. I will just keep trying. Here is a
        hypothetical question. You're a medic and you have 5 morphines.
        There are 10 wounded soldiers, 5 will die for sure and 5 will
        live for sure. All are suffering and are requesting for morphine.
        Should you give the morphine to those who are gonna die (so that
        they can die in peace) or should you give the morphine to those
        will will live? There's no right/wrong answer, I'm just looking
        for explanations and logic, thanks.
        \_ One utilitarian answer would give morphine to 5 soldiers who will
           live.  Why:  Assuming the total amount of suffering will be the same
           regardless of whether the soldier lives or dies, and assuming you
           can't 'split' morphine doses, the ones who live will have the
           memory of their suffering as additional sources of suffering.
           The ones who die will not.  Thus to minimize suffering you should
           administer the morphine to ones who will live. -- ilyas
                      \- the utilitarian approach here is subject to the
                         cookie monster problem. it also would say "if it
                         would make a racist hick sitting at home in west
                         virginia less happy to know you are treating a
                         black solider over a white soldier, you must factor
                         in his displeasure". --psb
           \_ But which is worse, the memory of having endured great pain, or
              the memory of the cries of the dying?
        \_ I thought morphine was purely a comfort thing and, in fact,
           increases bleeding. If you're more likely to die with the
           morphine, why not give it to the ones already dying?
        \_ How long until the dieing die?  How long until the wounded are no
           longer in pain or more morphine iis available?  I'd minimize total
           duration of suffering.  OTOH, if giving morphine to those will live
           will signifigant improve their outcome, they win.
           \- Why dont you read a book such as: Thomas Nagle: Equality and
              Partiality, http://csua.org/u/7pp BTW, Nagle was teaching at
              Berkeley last term. Dunno if he is still around. You need some
              ethical framework to talk about this intelligently and an anon
              MOTD discussion isnt a great format for this. There are lots
              of other recommendations if you are specific about what you are
              interested in. --psb
              \- One substantial comment: maybe there is no right answer, but
                 there are certainly many many wrong answers. "I'd auction
                 the morphine off to the 5 willing to pay the most" is probably
                 not an "ethical allocation". --psb
        \_ how many bullets do we have to put the dying out of their misery?
        \_ Give them to your friends first, then to the people who sound
           like they're hurting the most.  Those left out will certainly think
           this is fair.  If your medical training tells you that some should
           have priority, that naturally competes with friendship.
        \_ if they're gonna die, let them die. Give the morphines to the
           ones who will live so that they can live to tell others what a
           great medic you are.                         -guy without morals
        \_ say f$# it and take the morphine yourself
Cache (6354 bytes)
csua.org/u/7pp -> www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0195098390/qid=1086982762/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/002-8799701-0160836?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
Within each individual, Nagel believes, there is a division between two standpoints, the personal and the impersonal. Without the impersonal standpoint, there would be no morality, only the clash, compromise, and occasional convergence of individual perspectives. It is because a human being does not occupy only his own point of view that each of us is susceptible to the claims of others through private and public morality. Political systems, to be legitimate, must achieve an integration of these two standpoints within the individual. These ideas are applied to specific problems such as social and economic inequality, toleration, international justice, and the public support of culture. Nagel points to the problem of balancing equality and partiality as the most important issue with which political theorists are now faced. Scott Ryan (see more about me) from Silver Lake, OH In this engaging and well-written volume, Thomas Nagel squeezes a good deal of political mileage out of his perpetual distinction between the personal and impersonal points of view. Here he finds a difficulty striking the right balance between -- as his title suggests -- equality and partiality. His contention is that when I abstract from my pursuit of my own values, I am able to see myself as just one person among others and recognize that -- in an absolute, view-from-nowhere sense -- other persons are just as "important" as I am. Thus arises a conflict within myself between the "personal" and "impersonal" points of view -- or between partiality toward my own values and interests, on the one hand, and impartiality, on the other. Nagel is careful to note that he is _not_ arguing against personality/partiality altogether. On the contrary, he thinks there is an important place in the world for purely agent-relative values. his main concern is to try to set out the issues clearly. And at any rate, his main (tentative) conclusion is the comparatively tame one that it is possible and desirable to establish social institutions which provide a guaranteed minimal level of well-being to everyone. I take it that he thinks some, but not all, of our "personal" values will survive the transition to the "impersonal" point of view. The ones that survive this transition are, roughly, the ones it might be okay to tax people in support of. Now, frankly, Nagel's perceived difficulty seems to arise from a miscasting of the problem. On the one hand, surely all values are "agent-relative" in the minimal sense that every value depends (as Nagel himself admits) on the existence of at least one valuing agent, and every intrinsic value is realized or actualized in someone's experience. In that case the "personal-ness" of a value is strictly a matter of degree; and the two are not even contraries, let alone mutually exclusive. If that is right, then the real problem Nagel is addressing is not a conflict between agent-relative and agent-neutral values at all (his distinction between which Christine Korsgaard has criticized on other grounds in "The Reasons We Can Share," reprinted in _Creating the Kingdom of Ends_). It is the arguably more manageable problem of how individual agents are to set priorities among their values (including those they ideally should have). Which raises the corollary question of how far individual agents become _responsible_ for one another's well-being simply through the rational insight that such well-being is "good, period." For _ceteris_ is seldom _paribus_, and it is just not the case that insight into an intrinsic good necessarily imposes an obligation on the possessor of the insight. It is obviously possible to recognize the intrinsic goodness of a past event without thereby becoming obliged to bring about what has, after all, already occurred. It is also possible to recognize the intrinsic goodness (or otherwise) of a possible future event without thereby obliging oneself to make it happen (or prevent it); even if this is a _prima facie_ duty, it is easily overruled. Your trip to the dentist will no doubt produce some pain (an intrinsic evil), but you are not therefore obliged to refrain from going; And without sorting through the messy matter of personal responsibility, we cannot simply conclude that the "impersonal" point of view imposes any particular obligations on particular persons. But I don't think Nagel quite comes to grips with the question of personal responsibility/duty, and I suspect this is because, as Korsgaard notes, he is really a "consequentialist" rather than a Kantian: he thinks ethics is for the sole purpose of _bringing about some overall result_. If this view is denied, and especially if his distinction between "personal" and "impersonal" values is also found wanting, then his argument is an extended _ignoratio elenchi_. There are other difficulties: for example, his Rawlsian contention that people do not "deserve" their talents, the difficulty or impossibility of meaningfully measuring equality of outcome, and the fact that so much of his discussion takes place at the level of the "collective." In any case, though, I agree with reviewer Chris Cathcart (below) that Nagel's work should be read by political theorists of all stripes. The problems he raises are real, whether his formulation of them is ultimately satisfactory or not. And frankly, few volumes from the libertarian camp display Nagel's intellectual honesty, clarity, and nuance. edu from Walla Walla, WA Speaking as a libertarian, I disagree with Nagel's thesis. But the book is a very good, *clear* exposition of the moral underpinnings of a defense of equality. Nagel takes the view that their are certain impartial values that call us to action, that the personal view entails a partiality toward one's own goals that does not adequately constitute a moral point of view. Nagel clearly sets the terms of debate between an individualist or libertarian who only affirms agent-relative values and an egalitarian who affirms agent-neutral or impartial values. A definite must-read for anyone interested in political philosophy. Suggestion Box Your comments can help make our site better for everyone. If you've found something incorrect, broken, or frustrating on this page, let us know so that we can improve it. 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