6/9     Here is something I don't understand.  In USA, people kept bitching
        about China's Tiananmen Square. The most illustrated photo was the
        guy who stands at front of tanks.  Just past month, Israeli tank
        actualy *FIRED* the artilary shell at demonstrators, yet I don't heard
        anything about people bitching about it.  Why?
        \_ you mean the terrorist hiding behind those kids?
        \_ hello ilyas. Logic doesn't work in the real world.
           \_ what makes you think this is ilyas?
           \_ wow, you really don't know ilyas.  i've never heard him say
              _anything_ anti-israel.
              \_ Hi.  It's not that I think Israel can do no wrong, it's that
                 people don't appreciate the strain Israeli society is under.
                 Imagine gigantic Oklahoma-city style bombs going off in the US
                 every week due to Mexicans who want California back.  That
                 would be a comparable situation.  (This probably doesn't
                 need to be stated, but I am not op.  Duh.) -- ilyas
                 \_ Well, Israel doesn't have Oklahoma-city style bombs going
                    off every week. Most of them are small scale. They also
                    have been and are still actively in the process of land
                    settlement/population transfer activities and military
                    occupation. Your analogy thus falls rather short IMO.
                    \_ Israel is much smaller than the US.  Israel is tiny.
                       Larger countries can absorb more shock.  I think you
                       may be rejecting the analogy because it makes it seem
                       like Israel is in terrible duress, and has been for
                       many years.  Sadly, I think that's precisely the case.
                       As far as the military occupation is concerned -- you are
                       right.  You have to understand though, that Israel is
                       _still_ at war with some of its neighbors (Syria).
                       Almost any pullout move on their part results in
                       their enemies growing bolder (remember the aftermath
                       of the Lebanon pullout).  The situation there is so
                       messy, I don't really know what I would do in their
                       shoes.  The IDF operates under the assumption the
                       palestinians and surrounding arab states work towards
                       destruction of Israel.  I don't blame the IDF for
                       thinking this. -- ilyas
                       \_ Thinking?  It's the stated, in writing, Palestinian
                          policy to destroy Israel as their ultimate goal.  Not
                          having their own contiguous nation, not having peace,
                          not a bogus right of return.  Destruction of Israel
                          is their goal.  They not only don't try to hide it,
                          they trumpet the fact at every opportunity.  Western
                          pro-Palestinian media simply ignores it and fails to
                          report the giant pink elephant standing in the middle
                          of the Middle East cocktail party.
        \_ there was a discussion a few days ago. See the motd archives.
        \_ The tank fired at a house, it detonated early on a pole in the
           way, the shrapnel killed a bunch of people (kids too).  The
           Tiananmen Square people didn't have suicide bombers, all of their
           supporters are unarmed, and never killed any pro-government people.
           \_ And today the Europeans will suck their own cocks to get in bed
              with China but all hope Israel dies and goes away so they can
              get back to business as usual.