6/3     If California declares independence, and the non-kookoo portion
        of US decides to invade California, how will it attack?  cross the
        desert to take Los Angeles first, then roll up Hwy 5?
        \_ It would take 21 days.  20 days for the rest of the US to stop
           laughing and realise CA was serious and 1 day to retake everything.
        \_ The US is all out of step except CA!
        \_ On a related note, let's say you're drawing a U.S. Diplomacy
           board. HOw would you divvy up NOrth America?
           \_ Red counties and blue counties.
        \_ If pigs fly out my ass, will they have bat wings or feathered ones?
           \_ Bat wings, duh!  Pigs are mammals.
        \_ Take Interstate 80 from Reno to Sacramento.
        \_ I think a lot depends upon how committed to a war the citizenry
           is. Will companies like Boeing and Lockheed with plants in CA
           support CA or the US? Will US soldiers attack Californians?
           What percentage of US soldiers are from CA?
           \_ Let's assume CA has a decent army.  Inferior and outnumbered
              by the US military, but capable of fighting a little.  It's
              mostly a military question, rather than a political one -op
              \_ The only part of CA with significant military is San
                 Diego, so I imagine San Diego goes first and then the
                 defense contractors in SoCal. Less important is Silicon
                 Valley and the navy in SF.
                 \_ ok, let's assume california inherited 1/8th of the
                    US military forces minus anything nukular.
                    \_ That's not fair:  A lot of submarines are based out of
                       San Diego.
                 \_ Another issue is who are CAs allies? Mexico? Japan?
                    \_ I don't think any country would provide military aid.
                       \_ Why not? They did during the Civil War.
                          \_ The South had a chance of winning, and the North
                             was way too busy to fight the other countries.
                             The US could easily lob missiles at any country
                             that help California.
                          \_ link?
                    \_ what a great thread!  How about we assume the forces
                       of nature rise to aid California?  (Pigs with wings of
                       all types...)  What then?
                        \_ Why would the forces of nature rise up to help us?
                           Have you any idea how many H2s are on the road?
                           \_ Good point.  But is it fair to assume they'll
                              bite the tires/tracks of both attackers AND
                              defenders?  And there will probably be more
                              attackers than defenders, so it would be of
                              net benefit to the Californians?
                    \_ assume california has no allies, but neither does the
                       US, and it cannot attack California from Mexico.
        \_ yea, but don't attack LA directly, isolate it, cut off its
           water supply, and wait for it to surrender.
           \_ That would cut off all of SoCal.
              \_ What if we approach this the other way? California goes
                 on the offensive against Oregon, Washington, Nevada, and
                 Arizona to claim water rights. We pretty much own them
                 now anyway.
                 \_ ok, that's interesting.  Let's give California the
                    advantage of a first strike, surprise attack.
                    where would you try to attack and hold?  Of course,
                    you want to control the Sierras for its water and its
                    defensive value, but other parts of Nevada is kind
                    of hard to hold even if you conquer it at first.
                    I am not too familiar with geography of Arizona.
                    As for Oregon, is there any point in attacking it
                    for a defense purposes?
                    \_ CA can't even pass a spending bill on time.  You think
                       CA can launch a first strike?
        \_ But we have ... the Governator!
           \_ But the governator cannot travel back in time with any metal or
              clothing...
        \_ Or look at it another way, how would you set up your defenses
           for California against a US invasion?
           \_ Let's keep it simple.  After we crack the launch codes, we can
              deter with the nuclear weapons stored in CA, and build more.
        \_ Hawiians have talked about secessions for a very very long time.
           In fact, they're still talking about it. They have nothing in
           common with any other state and they're always fucked no matter
           who the president is.
                \_ hawaii's governor is very pro bush
           \_ Convert Pendleton before proceeding.  We stand a much better
              chance with the marines with us than with them against us.
        \_ CA vs. the US: it lasts about 3 weeks.  That's 20 days for the US
           to stop laughing, 1 day to take over.
        \_ Substitute Calif with Taiwan, and U.S. with China.  Now discuss...
           \_ It would help a lot if the PRC supplies weapons to California,
              and it has good reasons to, since there are so many Chinese in
              California.
           \_ Question for the anti-Taiwan independence crowd.  Didn't China
              cede Taiwan to Japan in the treaty of Shimonoseki?  -- ilyas
              \_ China tried ceding Taiwan, but Taiwan declared indepen-
                 dence before the Japanese invaded Taiwan, then Japan
                 ceded Taiwan back to China after WWII.  Weird.  That's
                 why Taiwan should declare independence.  We have
                 superior US made weapons that will kick China arse.
                 Some association of US companies in Taiwan put out
                 an advertisement in some Taiwan newspaper last weekend
                 warning Taiwan government to negotiate direct
                 shipping, flight, etc. to PRC, or US companies will all
                 be dumping Taiwan companies soon.  Those traitors!
                 be dumping Taiwan soon.  Those traitors!
                 Taiwan will soon be spending another US$18 billion to
                 buy weapons.  Greedy Americans overcharges Taiwan by
                 an arm and a leg for the weapons since no one else
                 sells to Taiwan.  Those bastards!  But hey, those
                 are some cool toys to play with.  I was personally
                 aboard one of the Knox class destroyers when it was down
                 in Long Beach during handover training after it was
                 bought by Taiwan.  That was one outdated warship.
                 We need a few Aegis boats instead.  Please sell us
                 a few.  PRC commies recently been unofficially
                 publishing list of Taiwan actresses and singers and
                 stars who are pro-independence.  Heard that president
                 Ah Bian recently had trouble inviting any of these
                 money grubbing actresses and singers and stars to
                 his functions.  Those PRC commie bastard bullies!
              \_ yea but article 4 of the Treaty of Peace between China
                 and Japan states that:
                        It is recognised that all treaties, conventions,
                        and agreements concluded before 9 December 1941
                        between Japan and China have become null and
                        void as a consequence of the war.