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| 5/24 |
| 2004/5/31 [Reference/History/WW2/Japan, Reference/History/WW2/Germany] UID:30508 Activity:insanely high |
5/31 Memorial Day question. Rather than launching D-Day, invading
Der Vatherland, and getting thousands and thousands of our GIs killed
(esp. on Omaha Beach), why didn't we just strike a deal with the
Axis in order to save more lives? What exactly did we gain from
unconditional surrender? German gold? (not really) German art? (no)
German women? (maybe) German technology? (yes)
\_ Part of it was prior commitments to the Russians. The Allies were
trying to prevent the Eastern Front from collapsing.
Of course you may argue that by 1944, it wasn't going to collapse
regardless of what the Allies did. Part of it was probably
realpolitik considerations -- the cost of invading Europe was
deemed acceptable given the influence the US would achieve in the
post-war world on the continent. The US didn't want to leave the
entire Europe to the Russians. You may note the US never invaded
Japan -- the costs outweighed the benefits there. -- ilyas
\_ Ummm... we were sure PLANNING to invade Japan, the only
reason we didn't was because to A-bomb worked so well.
\_ Of course we did. I claim the US would not have invaded even
without the A-bomb. The US would have negotiated a surrender.
The invasion was simply not worth it. Invasion planning is
something the military guys do, because it is their job.
The call of whether to invade or not rests with the politicians
and if their heads are on straight, they make the right call.
-- ilyas
\_ The US was not just planning but was going through all
the motions required to do so. I know guys who were
in holding areas waiting for the final word to load up
in boats and head to the main land. They wrote their
letters home and expected to die until it was called
off after the bomb was dropped.
\_ DAMN STRAIGHT!! Actually, I don't think it's clear
either way. It bothers me that 99% of people are
certain that the A-BOMB was neccesary to end the war.
I think it's an open question with valid points on
either side.
\_ There are different ways to end a war. Some are
better than others. A simple cessation of fighting
without a change in leadership like post-WWI Germany
only sets everyone up for round 2.
\_ It all depends on whether Japan/Germany would be
willing to surrender. Threat of invasion made for a
stronger case. So did the defeat of Germany.
\_ I respectfully disagree. As I recall, the Japanese
had already offered to surrender, on the condition
that the Emperor be allowed to keep his position.
However, removing the emperor and forcing him to admit
his not-godhood is basically what permenantly
destroyed the Japanese empire. It's kinda like what
would happen to the middle east if we could kick
Mohammed's butt and force him to admit that he isn't
really a prophet. There just wouldn't be much reason
to fight anymore.
\_ How long has this been up here? This is wrong.
There is *still* a Japanese emporer. The Japanese
had *not* offered to surrender. After the bombs were
dropped, they surrendered WITH the above condition
(that the emprorer be allowed to keep his position).
Jeesh, and the guy below thinks that everyone here
should know why we launched D-Day. -phuqm
\_ You should. It was only one of the most important
military and possibly non-military history events
in the last 100+ years. It only formed the world
as we know it today. Maybe you think who Britney
is dating is more important?
\_ Wow phuqm. I'm really impressed you signed
your name to a statement showing such amazing
ignorance. Offer of Japanese surrender
rejected: http://csua.org/u/7j9 Note that it
mentions that the Emporer would be subject to
the American military commander. The Emperor
surrendered UNCONDITIONALY after the A-bomb.
In other words, he gave up the throne.
MacArthur allowed him to continue as emperor,
but the magic was gone. Now he was just some
dude. So, in conclusion, there is still
an emperor, but he is no longer a demi-god.
-jrleek
\_ Is this a lame troll or are you just a product of the American
edjumuhkayshunal system?
\_ Because after spending years villifying the Germans and Japanese
in an attempt to cajole the United States public into believing
that WWII was a just cause, FDR became a victim of his own
propaganda. There was just no way politically that the United
States would have accepted less than victory over "the Hun"
especially when it seemed so close at hand.
\_ well said well said. everything above is boring junk
until this. |
| 5/24 |
|
| csua.org/u/7j9 -> www.worldwar2database.com/html/japansurrender.htm Bibliography In August 1945, the Japanese situation was desperate. The major cities were devastated by atomic or conventional attack, and the casualties numbered in the millions. Millions more were refugees, and the average daily calorie consumption was below 1200. The fleet was lost, and the merchant shipping could not leave home waters or sail from the few possessions still held. Oil stocks were gone, rubber and steel were in short supply, and the Soviets were moving against the only sizable forces the Japanese had left, the Kwantung Army in Manchuria. Many divisions had transferred to the Pacific, where they died in the island battles. Incredibly, many in the military wanted to fight on, preferring death to capitulation. The cabinet, made up of elder statesmen, tried to send out peace feelers through neutral Sweden, Soviet Union, and Switzerland as early as June 1945. The only condition was the continued existence of the of Imperial Throne. Unwilling or unclear of the Japanese offer, the Allies refused and issued the Potsdam Declaration on July 26^th. The Army members of the cabinet were not willing to give up, and Prime Minister Suzuki had to move carefully. If there was a perceived weakness in the cabinet, even the Emperor might be assassinated. The idea that the Emperor would support surrender was inconceivable to many in both the Army and the Navy. Suzuki cautiously sought out others on the cabinet, finding all but two generals in support. On July 28, the government issued a carefully worded response to the Potsdam Declaration, which unfortunately used a word with a double meaning. English-language broadcasts used the word "ignore" and the Western press picked up that sentiment. Truman announced he had rejected the peace offer and dropped the atomic bombs. The Emperor ordered a surrender document be sent accepting the Potsdam declaration. Through Swiss channels, it was sent to the United States, but it added that the Emperor must be left on the Imperial Throne. The Allies replied that the Emperor would be subject to the Allied Occupation Commander. While the cabinet debated, the Emperor secretly recorded a surrender broadcast. Imperial Guardsmen searched government offices in vain to seize the record. Using formal Japanese, the public was unsure if the Emperor was surrendering or exhorting his subjects to continued resistance. The announcer assured the Japanese public that the war was over. An abortive attempt that night by Army and Navy right-wing officers to take the Emperor hostage and continue the war was stopped. Truman accepted the surrender, and announced that the war was over on August 15^th. Wild celebrations occurred in every Allied capital and most cities. US Army General Douglas C MacArthur arrived at Atsugi Airfield that day. His staff, lightly armed with pistols, wondered if they would meet a firing squad. As they arrived, thousands of Japanese civilians surrounded the plane and gave him a warm welcome. On September 2^nd, 1945, a huge force of Allied ships gathered in Tokyo Bay. Aboard the battleship USS Missouri, the Japanese signed the formal surrender document, watched by thousands of Allied representatives and the crew. MacArthur presided over the signing, accompanied by his former subordinate General Wainwright, who had been a POW since 1942. The Japanese Imperial Forces began surrendering in massed formations over the next six weeks. By October 7, 1945, when 1,000,000 Japanese Army soldiers were surrendered in Peking, many Japanese soldiers were being sent home. |