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| 5/25 |
| 2004/5/8-9 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30110 Activity:very high |
5/8 Americans are weird. They would rather die than give up
their honor. Yet, they think it's ok to humiliate Iraqis
as long as they didn't cut off their fingers, etc.
\_ ChiCom Troll, you rock. The number of replies below must be close
to some record for a single post. Good job, man. I'm impressed.
\_ Damn... gone for a few hours and it tripled in length. This is
high quality trolling. Excuse me while I join back in.
\_ 'They'? I think you're confused. The reaction I've gotten from
friends, coworkers, media, etc is pretty much anger, embarrassment,
and outrage. *Please* don't use Rush or any of a set of political
pundits to make broad generalizations about a nation of 270+
million. *sheesh*
\_ Sorry 2/3 of America thinks it's overblown. This is not
crimes against humanity. What is shown in those pictures
is hazing.
\_ "Do you feel that these incidents are not a big
deal, because this kind of thing happens in a war
situation, or do you think they are a big deal, because
this kind of abuse is unacceptable no matter what the
situation?"
Not a Big Deal: 28%
A Big Deal: 69%
No Opinion: 3%
http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm
Fuck you.
\_ That's a great poll question. Very unbiased and neutral
wording. Or not. It still doesn't matter for the
election, for world opinion, middle east poliy or anything
else.
\_ Well, from the same http://pollingreport.com,
"What's your own personal reaction to the apparent abuse
of Iraqi prisoners?" 7% not concerned. 39% concerned,
not upset. 27% upset, not angry. 24% angry. 2% no
opinion. How concerned vs. upset vs. angry is read
depends on your bias.
\_ True, but still >50% are more than "concerned".
\_ How would you portray the media representation
of the abuse? Not concerned, concerned, upset,
or angry? You can be upset and still think the
media is overblown. It's all relative.
\_ 2/3? Uhm, where did you get *that* number from? Rush?
\_ I don't listen to Rush though I agree with much he
has to say.
\_ Polls from any major newspaper? You've been in the Bay
Area too long. The rest of the country doesn't care.
\_ Is it fun to be wrong?
\_ Apparently so. My Texas relatives feel the same way.
\_ How is that wierd? Unreasonable, maybe, but very human.
Last I checked, Texas isn't in the fucking Bay Area.
\_ I meant about your trumped up "fact". Find me
a poll that backs up your statement. Polling your
family doesn't count.
\_ Duh, your lefty family sent their kids to a lefty
school and it's some shock that they're still
lefties? What was your point again?
\_ Heh, you don't know my family. Your
presumptions are basically wrong, kid. Stick
to what you know.
\_ Umm... hazing is abuse of your peers as a prelude to accepting
them into your group. Unless they were planning on making the
Iraqi prisoners honorary US soldiers, it was not hazing, and
probably torture.
\_ This is not a game of semantics but your
definition is inaccurate. If this is your definition
of torture I think the soldiers should continue
it and increase the intensity.
\_ How is that weird? Unreasonable, maybe, but very human.
And where does that "rather die than give up their honor" thing
come from? That actually doesn't sound very American at all.
\_ American talked about honors, but they are no more honrable
than anyone else. American tend to turn a blind eye on their
share of dirty things.
\_ Yes, Americans are people, too. You have a point?
\_ Actually, they tend to turn a very open eye on their dirty
things, which is not the norm in this world. We're certainly
not turning a blind eye on this Iraq prisoner stuff.
\_ we are just blaming this to few "bad apples" and let things
continue. The concept of applying the same human right
standard to non-white is a recent phenonmon anyway
(circa 1960). The white imperialist mentality, which
embedded well within our social DNA, is acting up again,
this time, against Arabs or Islam believers in general.
\_ and continue? which is why all of the people involved are
now on trial? Also, "white imperialist mentality?" "our
social DNA"? <insert ad homenin here>
\_ Then leave so you won't have to put up with us. Please!!
Leave!!
\_ "Honorable" men get to rape and torture dishonorable men (and
women). Okay? And you were thinking of terrorists. Now go away.
\_ what is the differences between we and us? both of us uses
violent to accomplish our idealogical goal; both of us are
torturing prisoners. Neither of us are tolerating each other's
God.
\_ People are people at a personal level and all have the
capacity to do evil. The difference is that in my culture
this is unacceptable and we put people on trial for it. In
yours the leaders encourage evil and call it good.
\_ Unfortunately the Dems have been politicizing this war and this
just another one of their tactics.
\_ And this is just another republican spin-meistering to try
to deflect blame away from the party that gave us the WMD,
anti-terrorist (aka...finish what my father didn't do, and
get some cheap oil, too, for my buddy Cheney...whoops, didn't
mean to imply that cheney wasn't the boss) war. Time to topple
one more regime: the bush regime.
\_ You missed the averted chemical attack in Jordan? Would
have condemned Bush had he wanted to go into Afghanistan
before 9/11? Were you surprised by Libya's
nuclear weapons program? The world would be better off
WRT the Cold War you interpreation of history
with Saddam in power? This is not a war about oil or
patronage, it's about assymetrical warfare with a foe
fanatically dedicated to the destruction of the West.
If Europe had any sense whatsoever they would invade
Syria. This is war of ideas to accelerate a reformation
in Islam and cleanup / pacify the Middle East cesspool.
This should have been done post-WWII. Instead
brainwashed leftists contrive conspiratorial plots
that Bush wants to take over the world and is the new
Hitler. Get a grip and think strategically.
\_ Bah! First we sacrificed the opportunity for a
moderate, progressive middle east at the altar
of the cold war. Now, we sacrificed it at the
altar of our supposed security interest against
terrorists and non-existent WMDs. Brain-washed
neo-cons are absolutely clueless about how to
\_ When exactly did we miss out on the chance for a
moderate progressive middle east? In the bizarro
world timeline? Did they teach you this in some
"Teach-in" on Sproul?
\_ LYING, BACKSTABBING JEWS!!!!!!!!!!
\_ I bet you are the kind of person who froths about
"identity politics" and how they are destroying
our country.
point for bringing that up. What should
we have done differently?
\_ They are but no one is frothing about it. Maybe
they should be. My country is worth a healthy
dose of frothing over. Is yours?
\_ you totally missed the irony didn't you?
foster a moderate middle-east, as can be seen by
their utter bungling of the Iraqi endeavor.
Long term progress has again and again been
sacrificed for short term American interests.
Reform has to come from within with US perhaps
providing some carrots. Wielding a big stick
clumsily and whacking the wrong targets will
never work.
\_ It's easy to argue from the vantage point
of 20/20 hindsight. Iraq was 1-2 yrs from
a nuclear weapon in '92. You ignored my
question WRT to Jordan and Afghanistan because
I don't think you have a cogent argument, relying
instead on platitudinous rhetoric. Would you have
supported action in Afghanistan prior to 9/11?
WRT the Cold War your interpreation of history
is flawed. It was France and Britain that
partitioned the ME, we had relatively little
involvement.
We were doing quite well in Iran, for instance,
until Carter betrayed the Shah. Your entire
\_ no we didn't. We overthrew a true democracy
for a brutal dictator that is almost as bad
but not nearly as effective as Saddam.
comment is vague. Please, specifically what
would you have done differently? What, when
and how did we sacrifice???? I don't understand
what historical event you are describing.
\_ I am not the guy who says "topple the
Bush regime". Frankly, I don't see the
point of your two questions with regard to
Jordan and Afghanistan. Would you have
condemned Clinton if he decides to go
into Afghanistan during his term? The
Republicans sure would have. Would it
have stopped 9/11, or a similar incident?
I doubt it, as long as the lax security
on the homefront continued. I am actually
for the invasion of Afghanistan to get rid
of OBL. Above you claim that foes are
trying to destroy "the West", and now you
try to distance US from the past history of
Britain and France which are part of the
West. In any case, I don't see what's your
point for bringing that up.
\_ They are self declared as trying to destroy
the West as their goal. The US wasn't the
country that divided the middle east. You
are trying to create a false link between
these two true statements.
What should we have done differently?
For a start, we should have reduced our gas
guzzling habits, and hence dependence on
middle east oil. With that,
instead of cuddling up with dictators,
we could have better encouraged the
progressive and reform minded elements in
those societies starting with Saudi Arabia
from which most of the 9/11 terrorists
came from.
\_ Which progressive and reform minded
elements? You're just joking with that
line, right?
\_ Yet you also want to constrain
domestic oil production (ie. Anwar).
So the US should have retreated to
isolationism rather than deal with
dictators during the Cold War???
What a strategy, comrade! Your
suggestions are not grounded in
reality. Reform minded elements
among the Saudis... I see. Do you
know anything at all about the history
of the country? Anything???
Killing OBL during the '90s would
not have changed the outcome of
9/11???
\
-------------------
(1) who's talking about oil production? it's oil
consumption we are talking about.
\_ Well nuclear is out because of greens / libs.
That leaves what - wind power??? Do you
live in reality???
\_ read the report put out by NSF, it said
that by increase fuel efficiency by 10% in
light truck and cars, we would of saved more
oil than two Alaska's reserve.
\_ fuel efficiency has risen dramatically over
the last 50 years. people just drive more.
until we get to that mythical 100+ mpg on
all our vehicles you're only delaying the
inevitable. and now we have China ramping
up their industry and competing on the world
market for the same oil....
(2) Isolationism? who's talking about isolationism.
learn to read, and stop setting up childish strawmen.
\_ Then what? We shouldn't have allied with
Stalin during WWII? Rhee was a bad idea
in Korea? The Shah was a bad idea in Iran?
I think you are completely devoid of
any pretense, instead substituting feigned
indignance for substantive argument.
We saw the cumbaya group hug rhetoric
from Carter. Again reality????
\_ Please don't even mention Carter on the motd
again. The mere mention of his name makes me
physically ill. If you must, please refer to
him as "that weakling idiot peanut farmer".
Thank you.
(3) Reform minded elements is exactly right. Been
too busy pumping the oil to have noticed? If you
don't know much history, at least learn how to use
google.
\_ Saudi Arabia is controlled exclusively
by the children of Aziz (brothers).
Exactly how would you circumvent them?
Crown Prince Abdullah is more anti-Western
then Fahd. Again reality is important!
\_ If you so easily found "reform minded elements"
in the Saudi kingdom please share the links with the
rest of us who lack your search-fu.
(4) Killing OBL in the 90s? And who's the one
complaining about 20/20 hindsight? And Clinton did
made an attempt to kill him with the missile attack.
Wasn't too successful but neither is Bush's efforts
so far. Meanwhile, bombs are still going off all
over the world. Why isn't it going off in the US?
Like I said, tightened domestic security.
\_ Really? How about when OBL was in north africa and
his 'hosts' offered and even begged us several times
to take him and Clinton said no?
\_ Right... launching Tomahawks at camels in the
desert. Clinton has admitted he did not
take OBL from Sudan when offered. Attacked
5 times in the '90s.. what was the response?
Waco, elian, and effectively selling ballistic
missile technology to China. In summary
I ask for specific policy differences you
propose. Instead I get extremely vague
wishy washy nonsense. Why I am not surprised
and why did I even bother??
\_ We invade Iraq to stop terrorism? Why not just
use our resources (money, lives) wisely, instead
of using the "war on terror" as an excuse (and
opportunity) in fulfilling a pre-9/11 republican-
fucks agenda. Quit living with your head up
Bush's ass.
\_ Not the same poster, but even I can see
that this response has nothing to do with
his rebuttal to your arguments. You lose.
\_ that is because every time we won, you
fucking deleted the thread.
\_ _I_ Deleted the thread? That's
interesting. Maybe you should use
"someone" instead of "you". You
lose again.
\_ No one has deleted a god damned thing.
That old lie is the final excuse for
being crushed in motd debate. I expect
this whole embarassing (to you) episode
to get censored in a few minutes. |
| 5/25 |
|
| www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm India 10 Iran Iraq 11 Israel 12 Korea 13 Japan 14 Liberia 15 Mexico 16 Northern Ireland 17 Pakistan 18 Russia 19 Saudi Arabia 20 Serbia/Yugoslavia/Kosovo 21 Vietnam Iraq All data are from nationwide surveys of Americans 18 & older. Worth Fighting Not Worth Fighting No Opinion % % % 5/5-6/04 49 47 5 4/15-18/04 51 47 2 3/4-7/04 52 44 3 2/10-11/04 48 50 2 1/15-18/04 56 41 3 12/18-21/03 59 39 2 12/14/03 53 42 5 11/12-16/03 52 44 4 10/26-29/03 54 44 2 10/9-13/03 54 44 2 9/10-13/03 61 37 2 9/4-7/03 54 42 4 8/20-24/03 57 37 5 7/9-10/03 57 40 3 6/18-22/03 64 33 3 4/27-30/03 70 27 4 . Does Does Not No Opinion % % % 5/5-6/04 38 57 5 4/15-18/04 45 53 2 3/4-7/04 43 53 3 12/18-21/03 48 47 5 10/9-13/03 42 53 5 9/10-13/03 42 55 2 . Bogged Down Good Progress No Opinion % % % 5/5-6/04 60 35 5 4/15-18/04 59 41 0 . Very Closely Some- what Closely Not Too Closely Not Closely At All No Opinion % % % % % 5/5-6/04 36 39 16 8 1 . Approve Disap- prove No Opinion % % % 5/5-6/04 48 35 17 . Isolated Wide- spread No Opinion % % % 5/5-6/04 62 31 7 . Quickly Enough Too Slowly No Opinion % % % 5/5-6/04 42 42 16 . Investigate Cover It Up No Opinion % % % 5/5-6/04 44 43 13 . Resign Keep His Job No Opinion % % % 5/5-6/04 20 69 11 . What's your own personal reaction to the apparent abuse of Iraqi prisoners? Not Concerned Concerned, Not Upset Upset, Not Angry Angry No Opinion % % % % % 5/5-6/04 7 39 27 24 2 . Not a Big Deal A Big Deal No Opinion % % % 5/5-6/04 28 69 3 Gallup Poll. Approve Disap- prove No Opinion % % % 5/2-4/04 42 55 3 4/16-18/04 48 49 3 3/26-28/04 51 47 2 1/29 - 2/1/04 46 53 1 1/2-5/04 61 36 3 12/5-7/03 50 47 3 11/3-5/03 45 54 1 10/6-8/03 47 50 3 9/8-10/03 51 47 2 8/25-26/03 57 41 2 7/25-27/03 60 38 2 7/18-20/03 57 39 4 7/7-9/03 58 39 3 6/12-15/03 63 34 3 4/14-16/03 76 21 3 3/29-30/03 71 27 2 3/24-25/03 71 26 3 3/14-15/03 56 41 3 1/31 - 2/2/03 54 42 4 1/3-5/03 55 40 5 12/02 55 39 6 10/02 52 40 8 . Worth Going To War Not Worth Going To War No Opinion % % % 5/2-4/04 50 47 3 4/16-18/04 52 46 2 4/5-8/04 50 47 3 3/26-28/04 56 41 3 3/5-7/04 55 43 2 1/29 - 2/1/04 49 49 2 1/9-11/04 59 38 3 12/15-16/03 65 33 2 12/5-7/03 59 39 2 11/14-16/03 56 42 2 11/3-5/03 54 44 2 10/24-26/03 54 44 2 10/6-8/03 55 44 1 9/19-21/03 50 48 2 9/8-10/03 58 40 2 8/25-26/03 63 35 2 7/25-27/03 63 34 3 7/18-20/03 63 35 2 6/27-29/03 56 42 2 4/14-16/03 73 23 4 4/9/03 76 19 5 4/7-8/03 67 30 3 3/24-25/03 68 29 3 1/3-5/03 53 42 5 . Very Well Moder- ately Well Moder- ately Badly Very Badly No Opinion % % % % % 5/2-4/04 4 33 32 30 1 4/5-8/04 5 30 31 33 1 3/5-7/04 9 46 28 15 2 11/3-5/03 4 34 34 27 1 10/6-8/03 6 36 34 24 - 9/8-10/03 6 41 31 21 1 8/25-26/03 6 44 30 19 1 7/25-27/03 10 46 28 15 1 7/18-20/03 6 48 30 15 1 6/27-29/03 5 51 29 13 2 5/30 - 6/1/03 11 59 22 7 1 CBS News/New York Times Poll. Approve Disap- prove Don't Know % % % ALL 41 52 7 Republicans 77 18 5 Democrats 15 79 6 Independents 37 53 10 Trend: 3/30 - 4/1/04 44 49 7 3/10-14/04 49 43 8 2/24-27/04 46 47 7 2/12-15/04 49 45 6 1/12-15/04 48 46 6 12/21-22/03 57 36 7 12/14-15/03 59 35 6 11/10-12/03 48 48 4 10/20-21/03 49 45 6 9/28 - 10/1/03 47 48 5 9/15-16/03 46 47 7 8/11-12/03 57 33 10 7/03 58 32 10 5/03 72 20 8 3/26-27/03 69 27 4 3/24/03 71 24 5 3/23/03 75 22 3 3/22/03 72 23 5 3/20-21/03 69 25 6 3/15-16/03 55 41 4 3/7-9/03 51 42 7 3/4-5/03 54 39 7 2/24-25/03 52 44 4 2/10-12/03 53 42 5 . Better Worse No Effect Don't Know % % % % 4/23-27/04 10 71 10 9 . Worth It Not Worth It Don't Know % % % 4/23-27/04 33 58 9 3/30 - 4/1/04 37 54 9 3/10-14/04 42 51 7 2/24-27/04 42 52 6 2/12-15/04 41 50 9 1/12-15/04 43 51 6 12/21-22/03 42 47 11 12/14-15/03 44 49 7 11/10-12/03 40 51 9 10/20-21/03 42 52 6 9/28 - 10/1/03 41 53 6 9/15-16/03 43 47 10 8/26-28/03 46 46 8 8/11-12/03 46 45 9 . Iraq was a threat to the United States that required immediate military action. Required Immediate Action Could Have Been Contained Not a Threat At All Don't Know % % % % 4/23-27/04 32 48 17 3 3/10-14/04 42 45 12 1 2/24-27/04 40 46 12 2 2/12-15/04 39 43 15 3 12/21-22/03 44 39 14 3 12/14-15/03 44 37 15 4 7/03 43 43 9 5 6/03 53 35 10 2 . Did Right Thing Should Have Stayed Out Don't Know % % % ALL 47 46 7 Republicans 80 15 5 Democrats 24 69 7 Independents 44 47 9 Trend: 3/30 - 4/1/04 55 39 6 3/10-14/04 58 37 5 2/24-27/04 54 39 7 2/12-15/04 58 37 5 12/21-22/03 62 34 4 12/14-15/03 63 31 6 . Tried Hard Enough Too Quick Don't Know % % % 4/23-27/04 34 61 5 . On Its Own Bring in the UN Don't Know % % % 4/23-27/04 17 76 7 5/03 34 61 5 . Entire Truth Hiding Something Mostly Lying Don't Know % % % % 4/23-27/04 20 56 20 4 . Has a Clear Plan Does Not Don't Know % % % 4/23-27/04 32 58 10 12/14-15/03 34 53 13 11/10-12/03 31 60 9 . Less Than 1 Year 1 to 2 Years 2 to 5 Years More Than 5 Years Don't Know % % % % % 4/23-27/04 8 27 33 25 7 . Stay as Long as It Takes Turn Over Control ASAP Don't Know % % % 4/23-27/04 46 46 8 12/14-15/03 56 35 9 11/10-12/03 49 43 8 . Increased Decreased Same Don't Know % % % % 4/23-27/04 41 18 39 2 10/20-21/03 26 21 51 2 9/15-16/03 25 17 55 3 8/26-28/03 32 19 48 1 5/03 34 15 49 2 . Yes No Don't Know % % % 4/23-27/04 39 51 10 3/30 - 4/1/04 36 47 17 9/28 - 10/1/03 43 42 15 5/03 52 38 11 4/11-13/03 53 38 9 4/2-3/03 53 34 13 3/03 45 40 15 2/03 42 42 16 9/02 51 33 16 Pew Research Center for the People & the Press survey conducted by Princeton Survey Research Associates. Approve Disap- prove Don't Know % % % 4/21-25/04 44 48 8 4/1-4/04 40 53 7 1/6-11/04 59 37 4 9/17-22/03 52 40 8 . Right Wrong Don't Know % % % 4/21-25/04 54 37 9 4/1-4/04 57 35 8 3/17-21/04 55 39 6 2/24-29/04 60 32 8 2/11-16/04 56 39 5 1/6-11/04 65 30 5 12/19/03 - 1/4/04 62 28 10 12/15-17/03 67 26 7 10/03 60 33 7 9/03 63 31 6 7/14 - 8/5/03 63 30 7 6/20 - 7/2/03 67 24 9 4/10-16/03 74 19 7 4/8-9/03 74 19 7 4/2-7/03 72 20 8 3/28 - 4/1/03 69 25 6 3/25-27/03 74 21 5 3/23-24/03 74 21 5 3/20-22/03 71 22 7 . Very Well Fairly Well Not Too Well Not At All Well Don't Know % % % % % 4/21-25/04 12 43 26 15 4 4/1-4/04 14 43 26 13 4 3/17-21/04 16 45 26 11 2 2/11-16/04 17 46 23 11 3 1/6-11/04 22 51 18 6 3 12/19/03 - 1/4/04 23 47 18 7 5 12/15-17/03 28 47 16 6 3 10/03 16 44 25 11 4 9/03 15 47 26 9 3 7/14 - 8/5/03 19 43 24 11 3 6/20 - 7/2/03 23 52 16 5 4 4/10-16/03 61 32 3 1 3 4/8-9/03 60 32 3 3 2 4/2-7/03 55 37 3 2 3 3/25 - 4/1/03 39 46 8 2 5 . Keep Troops Bring Home Don't Know % % % 4/21-25/04 53 40 7 4/1-4/04 50 44 6 12/19/03 - 1/4/04 63 32 5 10/03 58 39 3 9/03 64 32 4 . Has a Clear Plan Doesn't Have a Clear Plan Don't Know % % % 4/21-25/04 36 54 10 4/1-4/04 32 57 11 12/03 44 45 11 10/03 35 54 11 9/03 32 58 10 . |
| pollingreport.com SEARCH engine, or access featured topics via the links on the right. Data are from national probability-sample surveys of the American public. Additional data -- including state-by-state presidential, congressional, and gubernatorial polls -- plus analyses by leading pollsters, are available to subscribers. |