5/8     In response to "You sincerely believe the pictures show torture?",
        I would say "Yes," and it seems like most in the administration agree.
        Now... why is it that we are only hearing the word "abuse" and not
        "torture"?
        \_ Newspeak?
        \_ Because most people think of torture as physical pain to extract
           information.  The pictures of Iraqis being forced into sexual
           situations don't fit that mental model.  That doesn't mean it isn't
           torture, it just doesn't fit what most people think.
           \_ It's definitely humiliation.
              \_ Ok, that's it.  I've had enough of hearing about how every
                 little thing is a "humiliation" to some Arabs and thus a
                 valid reason for their irrational militarism.  Let's just nuke
                 the cities, leave a radiation-free path to the major oil
                 fields and a few key ports and be done with it.  As the
                 winners we'll be writing the history anyway.
                 \_ So Bush should have never have talked about Saddam having
                    rape rooms, because obviously rape is just humiliation,
                    not torture?  I mean that follows from your arguments.
                \_ making naked human pyramids is pretty out of control.
                   i hope they send those guards somewhere to learn some
                   sense for a very long time.
                 \_ you've HUMILIATED ME you american SATAN!
                    \_ YOU = NUKED.  ME = GOT YOUR OIL.
              \_ Oh... the... Horror! Terrible, terrible ego bruising. We need
                 a bronze monument of the naked man-stack. Never forget!!
           \_ ``When the tall man was not satisfied with my answers, he hit
                me in the face. ''
                http://salon.com/news/feature/2004/05/08/torture
                \_ electro-shock to the genitals, torture.  bitch slap,
                   abuse.  that's why it's called spousal abuse and not
                   spousal torture.
                   \_ Some would call marriage torture, peroid.
                      \_ BDG!
        \_ They show "acts that can only be described as blatantly sadistic,
           cruel and inhuman," Rumsfeld said.
           \_ Making you listen to golden oldies while on hold is also
              blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhuman.
        \_ Semantics is a tricky business.  I don't know why some choose to
           call it whatever but I'd agree that most of what we've seen or
           heard of is "torture".  The part I think some people here are
           confused about is the PR effect this will have.  Someone has been
           writing here how "this issue will stick" and thus cause Bush to
           lose this fall.  These are two distinct issues.  It may or may not
           stick in the news cycle for more than the next week or so.  However,
           I disagree with what that means.  I don't think the typical voter
           is going to hold Bush personally responsible.  I do think the rest
           of the world will shove this in our collective faces forever which
           will only serve to make Americans less concerned about what the rest
              participating in hazing.  Hazing in this country has involved
           of the world thinks.
           \_ I agree. -dem
        \_ Rush Limbaugh said it was no worse than "frat hazing." Is being
           gang raped part of frat initiations now? Can someone who is a
           fraternity member enlighten me?
           \_ Frats are gay. Rush is right.
           \_ Quite a few people in this country went to prison for
              participating in hazing.  Hazing in this country had involved
              sodomy, murder, and other things besides.  I don't know what
              Limbaugh had in mind, but he was (sadly) spot on. -- ilyas
              \_ fun trivia fact: the first time George W. Bush was quoted
                 in the New York Times was in 1967, defending the sadistic
                 hazing rituals of the Yale DKE chapter which were under
                 attack by reform-minded yalies out side of the greek system.
                 \_ Were they stacking the fresman naked in pyramids?
              \_ I didn't realize you were a fraternity member ilyas.
                 \_ Congratulations!  You've just won the "dumbass reply of
                    the day" award!
                    \_ Why is it dumb? Did everyone already know that ilyas
                       was in a fraternity except me? How did they know that?
                       \_ Congratulations!  You've just won the "dumbass thread
                          of the day" award!
                       \_ He got banged by everyone and pulled around on a
                          leash in front of Sproul by the Hate Man, with wires
                          attached to his balls.  Where were you?
                          \_ pics?  URL?
        \_ If those pictures show torture I think they should continue
           it and even step up the intensiy a bit.