5/6     To whoever was suggesting the Branch Davidians were murdered in cold
        blood without provocation, these are the names of the four ATF agents
        killed when they tried to serve a search warrant:
        Conway LeBleu, Todd McKeehan, Robert Williams, Steven Willis
        \_ I'm one (the other?) guy who argued with ilyas. Call me "fascist".
           Now, I've read some conspiracy theories out there purporting that
           a) ATF agents opened fire first and b) the first 3 ATF deaths were
           friendly fire, which forensics supposedly corroborates. Then c)
           pissed off feds try to cover the thing up. I don't really know
           the truth here. The official inquiries don't support that, and if
           that was true then just what they were negotiating about during
           the weeks-long siege. I don't believe the Davidians were meekly
           unresisting. I do think it was a royal fuckup which wasn't
           adequately resolved.
        \_ why did the ATF call a local tv station to come on down
           and film them busting the doors down at le compound?  they
           in the US after WTC I.
           could have just called david koresh to come to the station
           and turn himself in.  instead someone unwisely turned
           it all into a clusterfuck.
        \_ Okay, quit it. You aren't Walter Cronkite. Give it a rest.
           -williamc
        \_ Bullshit, six Davidians also were killed in the initial
           shootout.  It has never been established that the Davidians
           fired first, more likely the ATF.  Koresh used to walk
           around town by himself a few days a week and had gone
           shooting with ATF agents in the past.  It was
           never proven any of their arms were illegal.  And I
           suppose you think Randy Weaver's wife and son also
           had it coming?
           Furthermore, this is the shit the intelligence agencies were
           up to during the '90s, all the while Islamicists were festering
           in the US after WTC I.                  -Mr. Bullshit
           \_ 'more likely the ATF'?  What are you talking about?  Do you
              really have a reasonably legitimate source showing that ATF
              is composed of trigger-happy psychopaths, or is this just
              juvenile anecdotal 'I Hate Mom and Da--err Cops!'?  I find it
              very, very unlikely that federal agents serving a warrant would
              have just started randomly shooting people, "Hey!  That guy is
              ugly! <BLAM!>  That dude is short!  <BLAM-BLAM!>"  Get fucking
              serious.  I find it much more realistic that they tried to serve
              the warrant, were fired upon, and in turn fired back.  People
              do tend to die in shootouts -- it's a proven fact.  Honest!  If
              you can provide even semi-credible sources to back your claims,
              I'll gladly concede the point (and be very pissed off at the
              gross incompetency that my tax dollars are paying for).
              \_ What was the warrant for?  Weren't they entrapped by the Feds
                 into buying an illegal shotgun or something stupid like that?
              \_ Proof that the Feds are a bunch of trigger happy jack boot
                 thugs?  Ruby Ridge.  Concede anything?
           \_ I'm not going to try to debate or defend the ATF raid, but
              someone very smugly said NO federal agents were killed, the
              Davidians never fired a shot, and challenged people to name the
              agents killed if there were any.  -dgies
           \_ what is this davidian thing all about?  it kind of reminds
              me of what we are doing to falluja.
              \_ And why the hell are you guys arguing about it NOW?!  There's
                 a lot more heinous things going on in the world RIGHT NOW.
                 JESUS.
                 \_ You see, son, there's this thing called HISTORY.  Some
                    people are interested in it because it can often provide
                    context to this other thing called the PRESENT.  The two
                    are often very strongly related to each other.  Use a
                    dictionary, you might find it elucidating.
                    \_ Yes, history is important.  However, rehashing idiotic
                       message board arguments from ages ago is not illuminating
                       in any way.  Absolutely nothing I've seen here wasn't
                       run into the ground by every wingnut on every side of
                       the issue 10 years ago, and it didn't help anything then
                       or provide context.  Oh yeah, and as to your cute
                       little dictionary comment, obFuckYou.
                       \_ It educated some people at the time as to the evils
                          the Government can inflict upon the People.  We
                          rehash it (this is the History Lesson part) in an
                          effort to educate those, apparently such as yourself,
                          that the Government still acts like that and it is
                          unacceptable.