2/4 Conservatives -- what two issues do you really care about?
\_ a. keeping my money
b. making more money
\_ you are making conservatives sound very selfish
\_ of course he is. he isn't a conservative. he's trolling.
\_ 1. Making sure my money is spent how I want it to be spent.
2. Reducing government services/intervention/size to those the
government does best (e.g. defense)
\_ I disagree with #1. Tax money should be spent wisely and for
what helps the nation, not on a new pool in your backyard. Or
better yet, my backyard. --conservative
\_ Maybe I feel strongly that a new pool helps the nation. I
think deciding what "helps the nation" is at the core of
this question and liberals have a different idea than
conservatives do. I don't think a lot of "helpful
government programs" help the nation.
\_ your feelings have nothing to do with it. you won't be
able to demonstrate a new pool helps anyone but you. I
agree that various social programs only destroy those
they are intended to help.
\_ How about the Interstate system? Are you opposed
to that, too?
\_ Built during the Commie Liberal Roosevelt
New Dealism era.
\_ The IState system improves commerce efficiency, so
no. The welfare system destroys lives, so yes.
Various tax credits and penalties are used to
conduct government directed social engineering which
IMO is the biggest crime possible in this context.
\_ a new pool will increase overall GDP (by increasing
consumption, and the pool maker will also consume and
so on.. sort of like the multiplier effect.) Thus, a
new pool might be helpful to society.
\_ no, because the final product has no value to society.
if the pool was purchased with his own money then what
you say would be true. but when purchased with tax
dollars which otherwise would have had that multiplier
effect in the economy, they are first filtered through
the government waste system and what little is left is
then multiplied.
\_ So you are saying it's better to build a pool
than to give the money to the wasteful
government in the form of taxes. Exactly. If I
pay some laborers $20K to build my pool I think
I've done more for them than any government
program would have.
\_ 1. Promote traditional family values. Protect the family.
2. Protection of Life and Liberty (from conception to natural
death) and the pursuit of happiness.
\_ Isn't racism a traditional family value?
\_ hint: I'm not white, or a WASP.
\_ yes, it is, in white, black, hispanic, asian, and just about
all other cultures. would you prefer breaking up all
families because sometimes they do bad and stupid things?
\_ No. But I'm pointing out what a vague and meaningless term
"family values" is in politics. What, specifically, do you
expect politicians to do about family values? They like to
talk about it in elections but it sidesteps any debate over
actual policies. In short, it's a load of bullshit. And
historically speaking, liberals were the ones fighting for
the rights of women and minorities. Maybe nowadays, family
values is a euphemism for anti-gay, xtian fundamentalism.
\_ killing people (born and unborn) is bad.
What about those rights? And affirmative action
is not the only way to help minorities.
\_ 1. Only allow the traditional sexual position.
2. Only adult can and must be killed.
\_ Bad troll, no cookie.
Liberals -- what two issues do you really care about?
\_ 1. Universal health care and education.
\_ Provide a service with infinite costs like healthcare and you'll
get everyone over-using it to the point that everyone gets near-
zero care. Education is a different story since the costs are
limited and predictable with long term benefits for all of
society.
2. I'm very glad to see a good number of the candidates talk
about fair trade and tax incentives to keep jobs here. If
we're going to play in a "global" marketplace, all players
must play fair. --scotsman
\_ They're talking but once elected it'll be outsource as usual.
\_ I'm being naive but I thought conservatives were free traders?
\_ Did I say free? Check your prescription. --scotsman
\_ what does fair mean exactly? I'll raise my tariffs
to match yours?
\_ It means "I actually care about how you treat your
workers"
\_ how does this translate into policy?
\_ Getting Bush out of office.
\_ is this an "issue"?
\_ only if you're an extremist leftist motd wacko. the rest of
country is more concerned with jobs, healthcare, and defense
\_ I bet 1/3 of the Democratic party would disagree with
you. You might think that 10% of the country is extremist
left whackos, but you are starting to stretch the
definition a bit there. Many of them are more partisan
than leftist, anyway.
\_ you are right. kind of like how all the
republicans want clinton out no matter what.
\_ "all" and "no matter what" are incorrect.
\_ 1. Making sure the most helpless in society, especially
children, are adequately taken care of.
\_ isn't that what *PARENTS* are for? who else?
\_ Parents have the first responsibility, but in many
-- ilyas
cases they fail to do their job. What then?
\_ Take the kids away and sterilise the parents. There
are a lot of people who can't have kids and would take
much better care of them. It Takes A Village, remember?
2. Keeping the rights of the minority safe from being
trampled on by the majority.
\_ including free speech rights for those who disagree with
you, right?
\_ In my case, absolutely. I am an ACLU member.
\_ mmmmm, yeeaah... I like the concept of the ACLU and
what they claim to stand for but they don't always,
but overall I'm glad they're there than not at all.
\_ I was an ACLU member once. Then they sold my name
to a bunch of mailing lists.
\_ 1. Protection of civil liberties
\_ Where were the Democrats during the Civil Rights movement, huh?
Blocking Highschool doorways so black kids couldn't enter.
\_ Didn't Johnson sign the Civil Right's Bill and send
federal troops to Alabama to desegregate the schools?
2. Socialized Medicine
\_ what is the conservative way of dealing with Medicine?
- not a liberal
\_ not going EU/Canadian style and destroying the system.
\_ Let the free market handle it.
\_ how would the free market handle it? What about those
who can't afford it?
\_ I believe there should be a minimal level of health
care provided to all citizens such as shots for kids,
and 911 emergency care but I don't think we should all
be paying for some of the things I've seen such as the
$250,000 spent so far just in medical costs to keep a
friend's near-brain dead child alive for the last 10
years. And then there's the $150,000 or so spent on
other care. The child is non-functional, unable to
speak at all, can almost crawl and doesn't recognise
her own mother from a hole in the ground. None of this
ever should have been allowed to happen. She should
have been allowed to die at birth and would have with-
out *amazing* amounts of top notch western medical
care. How many kids could be helped with that $400k
who can actually *use* the help?
\_ 1. Equal rights under the law, civil liberties.
\_ Where were the Democrats when the Civil Rights Movement was
taking the nation? Blocking black kids from entering white
high schools.
2. Promoting the welfare of the masses and egalitarian society.
\_ You mean taking money from one group and giving it to another
who hasn't done anything to earn it.
Moderates -- what two issues do you really care about?
\_ they care about nothing at all, that's what makes them moderates.
\_ No, they just aren't fanatics. They don't have a pet agenda to
push. So they listen to the yammering of both sides and want
something in between.
\_ They're mushy heads. How can they have been awake for the
last however many years and still not have an opinion on so
many topics which will send this country down very different
paths in the years to come? Mushy heads.
\_ They may like how things are or have views which don't
all neatly fall into one column or the other. Most things
end up being a compromise and therefore "moderate".
\_ The key concept of compromise is no one likes it.
I have no respect for people who prefer to compromise
all the time instead of making something happen. Mushy
heads. If they really believed in the status quo then
they should be opposing both sides. They *do* have a
pet agenda if you're correct. Since we don't see
your version of moderates raising their voices in
loud opposition to the extremes we must conclude they
really don't care and are just a bunch of Mushy Heads.
Message from OP: I'm not trying to troll. one of the reasons
I have is to see whether the priorities of conservatives and
liberals are very similar or very different.
\_ Mr. OP, in my opinion the difference between conservatives and
liberals isn't priorities (they are often the same), but
that they view human rights differently. The set of human
rights for a liberal is different from the set of human rights
for a conservative. Hence the vehement opposition, etc. Rights
are pretty basic stuff. -- ilyas
\_ are there rights when it comes to economic issues?
\_ Of course. For instance, a liberal might think everyone
is entitled to healthcare. In fact, he might think this
right trumps the property rights of others. A conservative
thinks property rights are more important. It is in the
specifics of what rights trump what other rights that the
whole disagreement is rooted. In some sense, liberals and
conservatives want the same thing (unless they are evil,
or sleazy political scumbags) -- for people to be happy
productive and free. But the devil's in the details.
I think the ordering of rights is not entirely subjective,
and there is one natural one that is 'right.' But some
might say that's naive platonism. -- ilyas
\_ we may have to make a distinction between the
hardliners of each side versus the more moderate
conservatives or liberals.
\_ Still, I think the difference is the ordering of
rights, and not something else. -- ilyas
\_ This might be true for the difference between
big business conservatives and liberals, but
you have to read the bible to understand the
religious conservative types. They aren't really
interested in the concept of "rights" at all.
It is more a matter of salvation and saving souls
to them.
\_ Religious conservatives may not be interested
in the concept of rights, but their position
implicitly defines how they view rights. For
instance, most religious conservatives have a
very restrictive view of rights when it comes
to homosexuality, same sex marriages/unions, etc.
Even if their philosophical position had been
\_ [ Hi, deleting other people's replies is
not cool. ]
\_ FU. I always use motdedit, unlike
you apparently, who frequently
overwrites my posts.
reached by reading the bible, and not thinking
about it a whole lot, it's still a position.
Some religious conservatives can give a
thoughtprovoking defense of their position, so
it's not easy to dismiss them.
-- ilyas
\_ Are you agreeing me, or what? I am saying
the differences are a lot more complex than
just an "ordering of rights." Not everyone
agrees that being happy and free is the
goal of existence.
\_ Ordering rights is a lot more complex than
you think. In some sense, the whole of
moral philosophy can be viewed as figuring
out what human rights are, and how to
order them. I will go out on a limb here,
and suggest than people who don't want
others to be happy and free are bad people.
I try not to talk to bad people. -- ilyas |
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