Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 29507
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
 
WIKI | FAQ | Tech FAQ
http://csua.com/feed/
2025/05/24 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
5/24    

2003/8/28 [Reference/Religion] UID:29507 Activity:very high
8/28    "Only one in five Americans approve of the federal court order
        to remove the Ten Commandments monument..."
        Just trying to understand this side of the argument.  Do
        people really think it doesn't violate the Constitution's
        church and state issues, or are they Christians who wouldn't
        mind the endorsement?
        \_ Atheist here: I think it doesn't violate the Constitution at all.
        \_ They're just stupid.
           \_ Yes, anyone who disagree with your viewpoint is just stupid and
              should be killed.
           \_ Yes. I am convinced their opinions would be no different even
              if it was something more overt like a big ol' Jesus-on-crucifix
              statue.
              \_ I want the version that looks like a hippie, bleeds every
                 hour (with the EZ self-cleaning option), and the removable
                 sword-in-the-side PLUS random vocalizations of His (editted
                 for Conservative POV only) word
                 \_ nice.
                    \_ *buzz* <drip> <drip> Do unto others *zz* as the Lord
                       God would do to you <drip> *zzz* (squirt-squirt-squirt)
        \_ Someone just needs to put a statue of the pope in a courtroom.
           Either we'll get some separation of church and state or this
           country will finally admit to being an Iran-like theocracy.
           \_ In God We Trust
              \_ What we need is to make Unitarians the official state religion.
                   -- ilyas
                 \_ No we don't.      -mice
        \_ Why does this violate the Constitution? Does it violate the
           Constitution that our money says "In God We Trust"? If Michaelangelo
           had painted a Sistine Chapel-like ceiling in that court house would
           people protest? It's art. --dim
                \_ Don't forget Sacramento, San Francisco, the President
                   in sworn in with a Bible, the USSC has Moses with the
                   10 commandments on the building, etc.  - the 'wall' has
                   no historical or judicial basis earlier than the 1950s
                   \_ Neither does "In God We Trust."  If you're so sure about
                      your faith, you won't mind keeping it the hell out of
                      federal buildings.
                      \_ So does that mean that statues of Themis (Greek
                         goddess of Justice) should not be allowed because
                         they are religious in nature? --dim
                      \_ If you feel this way enact policy through the
                         legislature or referendum.
           \_ I think there's a difference between a vague platitude on a coin
              versus Christian trappings in an actual courtroom. Not that I
              personally want the coin thing.
              \_ Judeo-Christian trappings.  The point is that old Roy had
                 the thing placed in a very conspicuous location as if to
                 to say, "What are you gonna do about it?"  This is much
                 more in your face than "In God We Trust."
                 \_ I believe in the Reeses' peanut butter cup theory of state
                    and church. The problem isn't when your religion is in
                    my government, it's when your government is in my religion.
                 \_ You can't pick and choose.  If one is not ok then neither
                    is "In God We Trust" on *every* dollar bill.  The degree
                    of visibility should make no difference and frankly I see
                    cash much more often than I see a big chunk of rock in
                   \_ Blah blah blah.
                    some random southern courthouse.  The money should be
                    changed before the rock if visibility is your standard.
        \_ Perhaps some view the First Amendment from a historical vantage:
           Justice Rehnquist's Dissent in WALLACE V. JAFFREE (1985)
           http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/971381/posts
           As an aside, the amendment reads 'Congress shall make no..'-
           the key word being Congress.
           \_ Oh, there he goes again.  Haven't you already been swatted, fly?
                \_ I'd respond to intellectual rebuttal of the points made
                   in the dissent.
                   \_ Hey, I'm into the slaveowner thing too, but I don't
                      constantly bug the motd about it.
                      \_ What?  You're a Southern Democrat?  Huh?
        \_ In another letter, to Rev. Samuel Miller on Jan. 23, 1808 Jefferson
           stated, "I consider the government of the U S. as interdicted
           by the Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions,
           their doctrines, discipline, or exercises. This results not only
           from the provision that no law shall be made respecting the
           establishment, or free exercise, of religion, but from that
           also which reserves to the states the powers not delegated to
           the U.S. Certainly no power to prescribe any religious
           exercise, or to assume authority in religious discipline,
           has been delegated to the general government. It must
           then rest with the states, as far as it can be in any
           human authority."
           This was written six years after Jefferson's 'wall of
           separation' letter.
2025/05/24 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
5/24    

You may also be interested in these entries...
2013/5/28-7/3 [Reference/Religion] UID:54684 Activity:nil
5/28    San Francisco, 24% very religious:
        http://www.theatlanticcities.com/neighborhoods/2013/04/americas-most-and-least-religious-metro-areas/5180
        \_ I expected Boulder, CO, being in the Mid-West, to be pretty
           religious.  Yet it's only 17%.
           \_ God damn hippies.
        \_ It says religiousity is negatively associated with "the share of
	...
2013/3/29-5/18 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:54643 Activity:nil
3/29    Old news but HITLERISM IS BACK!
        http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/aug/29/circumcision-ban-ignites-a-religious-battle-in-ger/?page=all
        \_ The "religious-battle-in-ger" part in the URL is funny.  "ger" in
           Cantonese happens to refer to the male genital.
	...
2013/3/13-4/16 [Reference/Religion] UID:54623 Activity:nil
3/13    The new pope is from Argentina.  http://www.csua.org/u/zgr
        Does it make another Falkland War between Argentina and the Anglican
        UK more likely?
	...
2012/12/28-2013/1/24 [Reference/Religion] UID:54570 Activity:nil
12/28   Looking for a religiousness density map based on county. Is there
        one out there?
        \_ Try http://search.census.gov/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&affiliate=census&query=religion+by+county
           \_ Public Law 94-521 prohibits us from asking a question on religious
              affiliation on a mandatory basis; therefore, the Bureau of the Census
              is not the source for information on religion.
	...
2012/12/30-2013/1/24 [Reference/Religion, Health/Women] UID:54571 Activity:nil
12/30   Women on jdate look hot. Do I need to give up bacon to
        date them?
        \_ http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2009-04-10
        \_ Don't know, but you may have to give up your foreskin to date them.
           \_ I think this is a deal breaker for most men, and why
              throughout history Christianity always overwhelms Judaism.
	...
2012/12/5-18 [Reference/Religion] UID:54547 Activity:nil
12/5    Why the hell are there so many Christians in the Fremont area?
        \_ Really?  I know there are a lot of Chinese- and Indian-Americans.
           Fremont is also the city with the highest Afghan- population in the
           U.S., but their numbers are no match to the Chinese- and Indian-
           there.
           \_ a lot of Chinese Christians there.
	...
2012/8/21-11/7 [Reference/Law, Reference/RealEstate] UID:54462 Activity:nil
8/21    I'm trying to negotiate rent renewal and my manager came
        back saying she can't do that due to Fair Housing Laws
        that states that if they adjust price for one person
        they need to adjust price for everyone else. Is this
        an actual law or some bullshit she just made up?
        \_ Probably bullshit.
	...
Cache (8192 bytes)
www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/971381/posts
Representative Benjamin Huntington then expressed the view that the Committee's language might "be taken in such latitude as to be extremely hurtful to the cause of religion. He understood the amendment to mean what had been expressed by the gentleman from Virginia; Madison responded that the insertion of the word "national" before the word "religion" in the Committee version should satisfy the minds of those who had criticized the language. Representative Gerry spoke in opposition to the use of the word "national" because of strong feelings expressed during the ratification debates that a federal government, not a national government, was created by the Constitution. Madison thereby withdrew his proposal but insisted that his reference to a "national religion" only referred to a national establishment and did not mean that the Government was a national one. The question was taken on Representative Livermore's motion, which passed by a vote of 31 for and 20 against. The floor debates in the Senate were secret, and therefore not reported in the Annals. The House refused to accept the Senate's changes in the Bill of Rights and asked for a conference; On the basis of the record of these proceedings in the House of Representatives, James Madison was undoubtedly the most important architect among the Members of the House of the Amendments which became the Bill of Rights, but it was James Madison speaking as an advocate of sensible legislative compromise, not as an advocate of incorporating the Virginia Statute of Religious Liberty into the United States Constitution. During the ratification debate in the Virginia Convention, Madison had actually opposed the idea of any Bill of Rights. His sponsorship of the Amendments in the House was obviously not that of a zealous believer in the necessity of the Religion Clauses, but of one who felt it might do some good, could do no harm, and would satisfy those who had ratified the Constitution on the condition that Congress propose a Bill of Rights. His explanation on the floor of the meaning of his language--"that Congress should not establish a religion, and enforce the legal observation of it by law" is of the same ilk. He did not see it as requiring neutrality on the part of government between religion and irreligion. Thus the Court's opinion in Everson--while correct in bracketing Madison and Jefferson together in their exertions in their home State leading to the enactment of the Virginia Statute of Religious Liberty--is totally incorrect in suggesting that Madison carried these views onto the floor of the United States House of Representatives when he proposed the language which would ultimately become the Bill of Rights. The repetition of this error in the Court's opinion in Illinois ex rel. On the basis of what evidence we have, this statement is demonstrably incorrect as a matter of history. None of the other Members of Congress who spoke during the August 15^th debate expressed the slightest indication that they thought the language before them from the Select Committee, or the evil to be aimed at, would require that the Government be absolutely neutral as between religion and irreligion. The evil to be aimed at, so far as those who spoke who concerned, appears to have been the establishment of a national church, and perhaps the preference of one religious sect over another; If one were to follow the advice of Justice BRENNAN, concurring in Abington School District v. The actions of the First Congress, which reenacted the Northwest Ordinance for the governance of the Northwest Territory in 1789, confirm the view that Congress did not mean that the Government should be neutral between religion and irreligion. The House of Representatives took up the Northwest Ordinance on the same day as Madison introduced his proposed amendments which became the Bill of Rights; Land grants for schools in the Northwest Territory were not limited to public schools. It was not until 1845 that Congress limited land grants in the new States and Territories to nonsectarian schools. On the day after the House of Representatives voted to adopt the form of the First Amendment Religion Clauses which was ultimately proposed and ratified, Representative Elias Boudinot proposed a resolution asking President George Washington to issue a Thanksgiving Day Proclamation. Representative Aedanas Burke objected to the resolution because he did not like "this mimicking of European customs"; Representative Sherman supported the resolution "not only as a laudable one in itself, but as warranted by a number of precedents in Holy Writ: for instance, the solemn thanksgivings and rejoicings which took place in the time of Solomon, after the building of the temple, was a case in point. This example, he thought, worthy of Christian imitation on the present occasion. Boudinot's resolution was carried in the affirmative on September 25, 1789. Boudinot and Sherman, who favored the Thanksgiving Proclamation, voted in favor of the adoption of the proposed amendments to the Constitution, including the Religion Clauses; Tucker, who opposed the Thanksgiving Proclamation, voted against the adoption of the amendments which became the Bill of Rights. Richardson, Messages and Papers of the Presidents, 1789-1897, p. The Presidential Proclamation was couched in these words: "Now, therefore, I do recommend and assign Thursday, the 26^th day of November next, to be devoted by the people of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being who is the beneficent author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be; George Washington, John Adams, and James Madison all issued Thanksgiving Proclamations; Thomas Jefferson did not, saying: "Fasting and prayer are religious exercises; Every religious society has a right to determine for itself the times for these exercises, and the objects proper for them, according to their own particular tenets; As the United States moved from the 18^th into the 19^th century, Congress appropriated time and again public moneys in support of sectarian Indian education carried on by religious organizations. Typical of these was Jefferson's treaty with the Kaskaskia Indians, which provided annual cash support for the Tribe's Roman Catholic priest and church. O'Neill, Religion and Education Under the Constitution 118-119 (1949). This history shows the fallacy of the notion found in Everson that "no tax in any amount" may be levied for religious activities in any form. Joseph Story, a Member of this Court from 1811 to 1845, and during much of that time a professor at the Harvard Law School, published by far the most comprehensive treatise on the United States Constitution that had then appeared. Volume 2 of Story's Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States 630-632 (5^th ed. An attempt to level all religions, and to make it a matter of state policy to hold all in utter indifference, would have created universal disapprobation, if not universal indignation. But the greatest injury of the "wall" notion is its mischievous diversion of judges from the actual intentions of the drafters of the Bill of Rights. The "crucible of litigation," ante, at 2487, is well adapted to adjudicating factual disputes on the basis of testimony presented in court, but no amount of repetition of historical errors in judicial opinions can make the errors true. The "wall of separation between church and State" is a metaphor based on bad history, a metaphor which has proved useless as a guide to judging. The Court has more recently attempted to add some mortar to Everson's wall through the three-part test of Lemon v. Generally stated, the Lemon test proscribes state action that has a sectarian purpose or effect, or causes an impermissible governmental entanglement with religion. The Allen opinion explains, however, how it inherited the purpose and effect elements from Schempp and Everson, both of which contain the historical errors described above. Thus the purpose and effect prongs have the same historical deficiencies as the wall concept itself: they are in no way based on either the language or intent of the drafters. The sec...