Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 29494
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2025/05/25 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
5/25    

2003/8/27-28 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:29494 Activity:high
8/26    Invaluable history on the First Amendment
        Justice Rehnquist's Dissent in WALLACE V. JAFFREE (1985)
        Read this is you are intellectually honest.
        http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/971381/posts
        \_ most ironic freeper quote of the day, from the comments on the link:
           "Now, we're on the edge of the judiciary taking over. Obviously, we
            can't let this happen. We need to resist, protest, make loud noises
            and, most of all, elect conservatives who will appoint and approve
            conservative judges."
            \_ Shrug.  No different than the left thinks and say everyday in
               far more public forums.  -- (I)
        \_ There is this great theocracy known as 'Iran' you
           are free to immigrate to, have fun.   Anyway the above
           opinion was the dissenting one, why do i waste my
           time responding to the freeper guy, goodbye - danh
           \_ I read freep, but I disagree with anything that resembles
              a theorcracy. Religion should only be a matter of faith.
           \_ LOL you don't even read the link.  I would characterize
              your behavoir as partisan emoting.  And you call yourself
              a (computer) scientist - rational indeed. -op
              \_ And you obviously took exactly what you wanted to from it.
                 Find Luis Gonzales's comments.  Some of the most cogent on
                 the page (more so than Rehnquist's).  Simply looking at the
                 context in which this _DISSENTING_ (you do know what that
                 means, right) opinion is presented should tip you off to
                 the deceptive attitude of the initial poster. --scotsman
                        \_ The Court refused to enforce the 14th
                           Amendment for 90 years - is the per curiam
                           in those cases equally legitimate? -op
        \_ My name is Bill O'Reilly -- I'm intellectually dishonest, so I
           can't read that.  This is the no-spin zone! -bill
           \_ WTF does O'Reilly have to do with *anything*?
        \_ Minority Opinion, thank the Goddess. How you freepers would wail
           and scream if some pagan tried to put a statue of Pan up
           in a government building, using government funds. This is
           nothing but an elaborate rhetorical attempt to justify
           forcing your beliefs on others.
           \_ If the Framers of the Constitution were all pagan, and
              most of America today were pagan, then they wouldn't have
              a problem with a statue of Pan.
           \_ The 10 commandments don't advocate a state religion.  They are
              simply Judeo/Christian tradition.  The same tradition this
              was founded on.  Would you have them remove "In God We Trust"
              from our currency?  Does it really matter what's on it?
2025/05/25 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
5/25    

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Cache (8192 bytes)
www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/971381/posts
Representative Benjamin Huntington then expressed the view that the Committee's language might "be taken in such latitude as to be extremely hurtful to the cause of religion. He understood the amendment to mean what had been expressed by the gentleman from Virginia; Madison responded that the insertion of the word "national" before the word "religion" in the Committee version should satisfy the minds of those who had criticized the language. Representative Gerry spoke in opposition to the use of the word "national" because of strong feelings expressed during the ratification debates that a federal government, not a national government, was created by the Constitution. Madison thereby withdrew his proposal but insisted that his reference to a "national religion" only referred to a national establishment and did not mean that the Government was a national one. The question was taken on Representative Livermore's motion, which passed by a vote of 31 for and 20 against. The floor debates in the Senate were secret, and therefore not reported in the Annals. The House refused to accept the Senate's changes in the Bill of Rights and asked for a conference; On the basis of the record of these proceedings in the House of Representatives, James Madison was undoubtedly the most important architect among the Members of the House of the Amendments which became the Bill of Rights, but it was James Madison speaking as an advocate of sensible legislative compromise, not as an advocate of incorporating the Virginia Statute of Religious Liberty into the United States Constitution. During the ratification debate in the Virginia Convention, Madison had actually opposed the idea of any Bill of Rights. His sponsorship of the Amendments in the House was obviously not that of a zealous believer in the necessity of the Religion Clauses, but of one who felt it might do some good, could do no harm, and would satisfy those who had ratified the Constitution on the condition that Congress propose a Bill of Rights. His explanation on the floor of the meaning of his language--"that Congress should not establish a religion, and enforce the legal observation of it by law" is of the same ilk. He did not see it as requiring neutrality on the part of government between religion and irreligion. Thus the Court's opinion in Everson--while correct in bracketing Madison and Jefferson together in their exertions in their home State leading to the enactment of the Virginia Statute of Religious Liberty--is totally incorrect in suggesting that Madison carried these views onto the floor of the United States House of Representatives when he proposed the language which would ultimately become the Bill of Rights. The repetition of this error in the Court's opinion in Illinois ex rel. On the basis of what evidence we have, this statement is demonstrably incorrect as a matter of history. None of the other Members of Congress who spoke during the August 15^th debate expressed the slightest indication that they thought the language before them from the Select Committee, or the evil to be aimed at, would require that the Government be absolutely neutral as between religion and irreligion. The evil to be aimed at, so far as those who spoke who concerned, appears to have been the establishment of a national church, and perhaps the preference of one religious sect over another; If one were to follow the advice of Justice BRENNAN, concurring in Abington School District v. The actions of the First Congress, which reenacted the Northwest Ordinance for the governance of the Northwest Territory in 1789, confirm the view that Congress did not mean that the Government should be neutral between religion and irreligion. The House of Representatives took up the Northwest Ordinance on the same day as Madison introduced his proposed amendments which became the Bill of Rights; Land grants for schools in the Northwest Territory were not limited to public schools. It was not until 1845 that Congress limited land grants in the new States and Territories to nonsectarian schools. On the day after the House of Representatives voted to adopt the form of the First Amendment Religion Clauses which was ultimately proposed and ratified, Representative Elias Boudinot proposed a resolution asking President George Washington to issue a Thanksgiving Day Proclamation. Representative Aedanas Burke objected to the resolution because he did not like "this mimicking of European customs"; Representative Sherman supported the resolution "not only as a laudable one in itself, but as warranted by a number of precedents in Holy Writ: for instance, the solemn thanksgivings and rejoicings which took place in the time of Solomon, after the building of the temple, was a case in point. This example, he thought, worthy of Christian imitation on the present occasion. Boudinot's resolution was carried in the affirmative on September 25, 1789. Boudinot and Sherman, who favored the Thanksgiving Proclamation, voted in favor of the adoption of the proposed amendments to the Constitution, including the Religion Clauses; Tucker, who opposed the Thanksgiving Proclamation, voted against the adoption of the amendments which became the Bill of Rights. Richardson, Messages and Papers of the Presidents, 1789-1897, p. The Presidential Proclamation was couched in these words: "Now, therefore, I do recommend and assign Thursday, the 26^th day of November next, to be devoted by the people of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being who is the beneficent author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be; George Washington, John Adams, and James Madison all issued Thanksgiving Proclamations; Thomas Jefferson did not, saying: "Fasting and prayer are religious exercises; Every religious society has a right to determine for itself the times for these exercises, and the objects proper for them, according to their own particular tenets; As the United States moved from the 18^th into the 19^th century, Congress appropriated time and again public moneys in support of sectarian Indian education carried on by religious organizations. Typical of these was Jefferson's treaty with the Kaskaskia Indians, which provided annual cash support for the Tribe's Roman Catholic priest and church. O'Neill, Religion and Education Under the Constitution 118-119 (1949). This history shows the fallacy of the notion found in Everson that "no tax in any amount" may be levied for religious activities in any form. Joseph Story, a Member of this Court from 1811 to 1845, and during much of that time a professor at the Harvard Law School, published by far the most comprehensive treatise on the United States Constitution that had then appeared. Volume 2 of Story's Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States 630-632 (5^th ed. An attempt to level all religions, and to make it a matter of state policy to hold all in utter indifference, would have created universal disapprobation, if not universal indignation. But the greatest injury of the "wall" notion is its mischievous diversion of judges from the actual intentions of the drafters of the Bill of Rights. The "crucible of litigation," ante, at 2487, is well adapted to adjudicating factual disputes on the basis of testimony presented in court, but no amount of repetition of historical errors in judicial opinions can make the errors true. The "wall of separation between church and State" is a metaphor based on bad history, a metaphor which has proved useless as a guide to judging. The Court has more recently attempted to add some mortar to Everson's wall through the three-part test of Lemon v. Generally stated, the Lemon test proscribes state action that has a sectarian purpose or effect, or causes an impermissible governmental entanglement with religion. The Allen opinion explains, however, how it inherited the purpose and effect elements from Schempp and Everson, both of which contain the historical errors described above. Thus the purpose and effect prongs have the same historical deficiencies as the wall concept itself: they are in no way based on either the language or intent of the drafters. The sec...